Racism or Realism?

[Frostbyte]

At what point does racism become realism?

Let me begin by saying that I am 5'6", 180 lbs, and white. I was 205 lbs in April, and have been trying to get some exercise lately. This has relevance, if you bear with me.

Earlier at work today, I mentioned that I bought a basketball yesterday. Since my coworkers all live out in suburbs, and I don't, they asked who I was going to be playing with.

My response drew some pretty stunned looks, and I think they were offended by what I said.

Me: "Two black guys that live in the apartment above me. They are both African and around 6'4"... I think I'm toast. (laughter) Just kidding. I'm playing against the short white guy next door, but I think they might be joining us."

It's hard to describe their looks. But I definitely got the impression that they were uncomfortable.

So do you think implying that guys that are over 6' and black would kick my short white ass at basketball is racist?

[philly]

That sounds more along the lines of stereotyping than racism.

[Thrash]

Well, it's well established, that there are many many many superb black athletes. No way around that. Simple fact. Like Michael Jordan, undisputed. Wilt Chamberlain, another undisputed. There are many superb white athletes. Can you say Nash or Novinski for the Dallas Something or others. Or how about Larry Bird. As far as describing someone as a "Black" person. Do it. Who REALLY gives a damn? Politicians? Oh well. If a black person says to you "Hey, I am offended about that.. call me African American" then you do that around them. But I bet most black people wont comment. Also concerning racial jokes...... They are all in good fun as long as you don't hate the people you are joking about. (Hell it's all right even if you do hate them, but at that point it's the difference between joking and being racial. ) Jokes go both ways, I am sure they tell white people jokes. Hell, watch any vocal stand up comedian. AKA Christ Rock. He's the perfect example of how to be racial and funny at the same time.

let me say this if those 2 black men aren't offended by you asuming they're good at basketball then why should your white coworkers be offended for them?

You weren't even close to being racist. You claimed that they were both 6'4" and black, noting that their being eight inches taller than you would give them a big advantage. Their being African American is also significant because, well, when you think about good basketball players, you think most about black people.

If you had just said, "These two guys that live above me. They're both black so I think I'm toast," that would be stereotyping, but not racist even then. Racism would have been expressing intolerance or hatred towards them - you wouldn't even socialize with black people if you were a racist.

[philly]

hmmm....my bad, I thought you were looking for a clarification on your coworkers response to your description of them and their b-ball skills.

I don't know about the rest of the world, but in tallahasee, the term "nigger" is used relatively freely. It's just one more thing that I hate about tallahassee since I moved here. It was a total shock for me to hear people talk like "Haha dude, did you just see those two niggers" and "i dunno, it was some nigger." The thing is, it comes from normal people. Not kids who sit at home and worship the devil, but dudes that I play paintball with and go to the movies with.

Your co-workers are pretty up tight.

[NappyK]

That was nowhere near racism. It was just honest truth. If they felt even slightly uncomfortable with the statement you made then they are way too uptight and need to loosen up.

Its just a fact. 6 foot 4 white guys would probably kick your ass in ball too.

[Moniker]

What's up with BET though? Black Entertainment Television. I have no problem with it's existence, but if a WET network came into play (if it wasn't porn), there would be a lot of bitching. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Take away the W, keep the exact same programming, and you'll find out it already exists.

How bout, The United White Man's College Fund, you think the winner of that would make it home from the bar late at night? You do realize there are scholarships for different ethnicities (German, Italian, Jewish, Spanish, etc). Just because it's not called 'White' (as opposed to black) doesn't mean it exists.

Or a movie.. White Men Can't Jump. How bout "Black Men Can't Swim"? Aside from the amazing lack of content and poor plot, that movie would catch much grief. So, you're comparing a comedy about a white guy in a predominantly black neighborhood being a basketball hustler (successful one at that) to a movie where, let me guess, a black guy in a predominantly white neighborhood being a successful swimmer?

I'm pretty sure the reason that hasn't been made is primarily because nobody would go see it, not because of the title.

[ethEreal]

Get this, a black guy who hustles white guys out of money in swimming. Sounds pretty funny lol

Originally posted by ethEreal
Get this, a black guy who hustles white guys out of money in swimming. Sounds pretty funny lol

lol that does sound funny

[DarthGreg]

Sounds like they don't have a sense of humor to me. It's natural for humans to seek out patterns in their environment, most good basketball players are black. It's not that terrible of a categorization.

And yes, all the exclusive black stuff (BET, black Ms. America, etc.) are racist, and disgust me.

[ethEreal]

And yes, all the exclusive black stuff (BET, black Ms. America, etc.) are racist, and disgust me.

Good, so then NBC, ABC, and CBS must also be unequivocally repugnant, as well, right?

[Thrash]

NBC ABC and CBS aren't targeted to just white people. They are targetted to everyone. Come on BLACK Entertainment Television.. who's that targetted to entertain??

I just had to point that out. I actually don't care. My house hasn't been fire bombed, I don't have a slave, and blacks don't make me feel hatred or edgy when I am around then.

[4est]

I know this is sad....

ANYTHING you say that offends a a co-worker is well...offensive. The "receiver" is given all the power. "Receiver" is also the actual term used in discrimination/sensitivity type classes in the workplace. If you used the term "black" or make a basketball reference and it offends a co-worker, you automatically lose in the situation.

Hostility in the workplace is a VERY touchy topic. Frostbyte could honestly be fired over what was said.

[Moniker]

Don't attempt to argue with me if you're going to look at opinions in this forum ready to dispute. Relax? I wasn't even the least bit hostile in my reply. You must be new to the Politiphiligion(sp?)/Academy forums, so try not to take everything so personally. If you want to express your opinions then prepare to have them challenged.

And yes, all the exclusive black stuff (BET, black Ms. America, etc.) are racist, and disgust me.

NBC ABC and CBS aren't targeted to just white people. They are targetted to everyone. Come on BLACK Entertainment Television.. who's that targetted to entertain?? And I suppose I should clear up a misconception here. BET was created as a haven because of the racist (or at the very least, discriminatory) business practices of network executives long ago. It remained profitable, so it's still being maintained today.

Believe it or not they do have white people on their network, and yes they do play music videos with white artists in them. A white man even owns the network currently.

And like it or not, the huge networks (ABC, NBC, CBS) are targetted towards however big of an audience they can get. It's a numbers game. The numbers just so happen to favor white middle-class suburban households, hence the programming, like it or not, is geared towards them. There are a few shows with blacks in it here and there to increase that demographic to include more black and hispanic households, but they're obviously going to get as much as they can without sacrificing what they already have.

And to reiterate, so nobody takes this equation completely out of context...

Big 3 want ratings -> majority of the country is middle class and white -> the programming is designed to attract the largest demographic which happens to be -> middle class white Americans who watch TV shows they can relate to.

BET is a cable channel, and like most cable channel it has a more specific audience, which happens to be black people. So naturally they target black people. Would changing its name seriously make it all fine and dandy?

Trust me, if someone thought a White Entertainment Channel would make a lot of money I'm positive they would do it, but what kind of programming would you think it would have? How many people you think would watch it as opposed to the hundreds of other channels?

I can't say much about the Ms. Black America pageant because I don't really care about pageants anyway, but if you post an example I'd be glad to explain why it is or isn't racist.

[snaggle]

Originally posted by 4est
I know this is sad....

ANYTHING you say that offends a a co-worker is well...offensive. The "receiver" is given all the power. "Receiver" is also the actual term used in discrimination/sensitivity type classes in the workplace. If you used the term "black" or make a basketball reference and it offends a co-worker, you automatically lose in the situation.

Hostility in the workplace is a VERY touchy topic. Frostbyte could honestly be fired over what was said.

How so? He made no racist remarks. The case wouldn't hold water in city court.

[4est]

Originally posted by snaggle
How so? He made no racist remarks. The case wouldn't hold water in city court.

He made a comment that involved race. The intentions do not matter. The "receiver" of the comment, meaning anyone who might have heard it, is the person that determines if the comment is racist/hostile.

The place where I used to work made ALL (several hundred) employees attend classes about discrimination and anything that could contribute to a hostile environment. They even mentioned a heroin addict public school teacher who could NOT be fired because she was under the care of a doctor. Addiction is considered a disability and the teacher cannot be fired as long as she does not show up to work high.

The laws are VERY protective anyone who might be considered disabled or in a hostile environment. Granted, any reasonable employer would just verbally reprimand Frostbyte, but many have been fire for as much.

[Frostbyte]

I'm sure I'm fine, they are not that uptight.

But 4est is probably right, that I would likely get in deep shit if someone spoke up. IBM is very, very serious about their diversity.

This month is gay/lesbian/transsexual month as a matter of fact. There are posters up at work. Of course, there aren't any pictures on the posters, which I find amusing each year.

Why not show some guys kissing?

Or a man in female business clothes?

Or two women holding hands?

I have joked that I will start coming to work in drag, just to see how they handle it. Nobody would be allowed to laugh at me, or they would get in big trouble. lol

I can just imagine going to our conservative customers office buildings like that for meetings. They would FREAK OUT.

Come to think of it, the looks that I received from my coworkers were probably closer to nervousness. ("Can I laugh at that?")

look at show's like Friends hmmm i have yet to see 1 black person in that show now even in the show like having a part but even walking down the street and a few other shows where you have like the "typical white family" you dont see any black people , as for BET they like moiker said show white music videos and have white people on the show

[Moniker]

Although I would it admit it would suck to see transsexuals making holding hands and running throught he daffodils on a grassy hill making out....and not be able to bust out laughing.

That'd be pure torture.

Originally posted by Frostbyte


This month is gay/lesbian/transsexual month as a matter of fact. There are posters up at work. Of course, there aren't any pictures on the posters, which I find amusing each year.



For christs sake, does EVERYONE need their own month now? Black history month, gay/lesbian month, jesus christ! Since when do faggots and butt pirates get their own month. They damn well better have a Porn Star/Adult Entertainer month next, complete with posters.

[snaggle]

Originally posted by 4est
He made a comment that involved race. The intentions do not matter. The "receiver" of the comment, meaning anyone who might have heard it, is the person that determines if the comment is racist/hostile.

The place where I used to work made ALL (several hundred) employees attend classes about discrimination and anything that could contribute to a hostile environment. They even mentioned a heroin addict public school teacher who could NOT be fired because she was under the care of a doctor. Addiction is considered a disability and the teacher cannot be fired as long as she does not show up to work high.

The laws are VERY protective anyone who might be considered disabled or in a hostile environment. Granted, any reasonable employer would just verbally reprimand Frostbyte, but many have been fire for as much.

I still don't see how telling a story about his two large black friends schooling him in basketball could be misconstrued as racist remarks...I work with BLACK guys...not African Americans...BLACK guys. They don't like being called African American...any more than I like being called Caucasian or WHITE. I'm a European American thank you very much...:rolleyes:

I got in trouble with my university for selecting "other" as my race...I claimed to be European American and they were like...pshh..yeah whatever.

Originally posted by snaggle
I still don't see how telling a story about his two large black friends schooling him in basketball could be misconstrued as racist remarks...I work with BLACK guys...not African Americans...BLACK guys. They don't like being called African American...any more than I like being called Caucasian or WHITE. I'm a European American thank you very much...:rolleyes:

I got in trouble with my university for selecting "other" as my race...I claimed to be European American and they were like...pshh..yeah whatever.
that makes no sense "I work with BLACK guys...not African Americans...BLACK guys. They don't like being called African American...any more than I like being called Caucasian or WHITE. I'm a European American thank you very much" does that look weird to any1 else?

[snaggle]

It was meant to...it's just as stupid as if you were to flip it around...but saying it the way I did makes it un-PC...

[Summer]

I just wanted to clarify one thing. Just about everything Moniker said in his post above is correct.

Originally posted by Moniker
Big 3 want ratings -> majority of the country is middle class and white -> the programming is designed to attract the largest demographic which happens to be -> middle class white Americans who watch TV shows they can relate to.

The reasons for the type of shows is not because the majority of the country is middle class and white. The reason is because it is those people who spend the most money.

I forgot what the exact numbers were. I'm pretty sure you have all heard this term before. 18-35 age group. This is a very important term to advertisers. White males in this group are known to be the biggest spenders. This number is the most important factor on how much the station can charge for time.

Shows like Friends have both a very high total number and a very high 18-35 number. I think 30 sec on that cost something like a million. A show like CSI and a lot of CBS shows, which might have higher total numbers, but are lower in the 18-35 than FOX shows like Millionare, will cost less to buy time.

[Bwater]

lol Frostbyte, as I was reading your original post I was thinking "good thing he doesnt work for IBM because they would fry his ass", as I work for IBM too, and they most certainly take diversity very very seriously (sometimes its plain ridiculous). small world.

Anyways, my point is that the venue where the comment is made is almost more important than what was actually said. Speaking from personal experience, the actuall wordage (i think I just invented that word w00t) of your comment may not have been what prompted a negative reaction, but the fact that it tip toes the line of most companies diversity policies may have just made them walk on egg shells and dance away from the topic. I see that all time around here, people have a very deliberate and careful vocabulary because they are forced to, not because they have a legitimate concern of being offensive/being offended. My co-worker, Mark, told a hillarious racist joke under his breath, which no one but myself heard, but I was afraid to laugh at it for some reason... corporate America brainwashing at its finest.

[DarthGreg]

Originally posted by ethEreal
Good, so then NBC, ABC, and CBS must also be unequivocally repugnant, as well, right?
Any group or organization that is inclusive or exclusive in any way based on skin color is. It shouldn't fucking matter, one way or another.

Bringing somebody into a group just because they fit a racial profile is no worse than excluding them for the same reason.

As for those 3 networks, I don't watch much TV, can't really say.

[X^V]

What's up with BET though? Black Entertainment Television. I have no problem with it's existence, but if a WET network came into play (if it wasn't porn), there would be a lot of bitching.

There is WET....watch any of your other 30000000 stations. "thats why btw...." lol

Plus, in todays world, its ok to be black and racist, just not white ...[sarcasm...sorta?] Watch BET for 5 mins, its sad, there are so many white jokes that its sick, a white guy does that, he gets slammed, its racism both ways and is sad.

[Moniker]

Plus, in todays world, its ok to be black and racist, just not white ...[sarcasm...sorta?] Watch BET for 5 mins, its sad, there are so many white jokes that its sick, a white guy does that, he gets slammed, its racism both ways and is sad. Then bitch about it! Why do you think people walk on eggshells about offending minorities? Easy: minorities raise hell when they're offended.

Seriously, if these kinds of things bother you then start a e-mail campaign to BET urging them to stop making racist jokes against white people. I personally have always noticed a tendency for white people to bottle up racial tensions while blacks, hispanics, etc, tend to bitch about it.

If you think it's so sad, then speak up.

[snaggle]

Originally posted by X^V
There is WET....watch any of your other 30000000 stations. "thats why btw...." lol


Bzzzt...Wrong. There's no station that even remotely resembles White Entertainment Television. There's no station that will promote only White artists, White actors, things White people are into. They don't have "(insert racist term here)" jokes on as a matter of course...they don't single out any one color of people and poke fun at them like BET does. There are networks that slightly alienate certain groups with their content, but they don't go out of their way to set one race apart from others.

[Moniker]

There are networks that slightly alienate certain groups with their content, but they don't go out of their way to set one race apart from others. Go out of their way? Do you even watch BET? I know there are a lot of white people who watch and enjoy Comicview. There are even white comedians that usually appear on this show, and, god forbid, make jokes about black people. Almost every black comedian makes jokes about black people. Hell, Family Guy makes racial jokes and I enjoy that and don't feel alienated at all. Perhaps you shouldn't assume everyone is as tragically insecure as you are.

In fact, I look at BET's lineup, and most of it is just programming that focuses on black people that you wouldn't find on other networks.

[Frostbyte]

Originally posted by snaggle
Bzzzt...Wrong. There's no station that even remotely resembles White Entertainment Television.

No Blacks Channel
Arian Broadcasting Company
Caucasion Broadcasting Station

:p

The following links will obviously be different depending on when you look. I'll comment based on how it looks right now (Friday).

http://www.cbs.com/

Almost every face is white. A few token blacks in the Amazing Race cast of course.

http://abc.abcnews.go.com/

Not too bad here at ABC. My Wife and Kids is there, as well as the NBA Finals, so we have a couple of black people present. If you click on the "Choose a Show" dropdown however, you will find a huge list of extremely "White" shows. I'm guessing that NYPD Blue and The Practice are probably exceptions. And George Lopez's show is primarily latino.

http://www.nbc.com

No black people in sight there. If you look through the shows, you see a couple that have a good mix (notably ER). But really.. look through the list of shows. How many black characters can you think of on any of those shows?


I used to think the same thing about BET. I would watch it and think that it was weird that there wasn't a single white person in sight on some of the shows. I thought it was pretty one-sided.

Then, when watching the other channels, I tried to imagine how I would feel if I was black. I couldn't believe how "white" they were. It was really eye-opening.

[snaggle]

Originally posted by Moniker
Go out of their way? Do you even watch BET? I know there are a lot of white people who watch and enjoy Comicview. There are even white comedians that usually appear on this show, and, god forbid, make jokes about black people. Almost every black comedian makes jokes about black people. Hell, Family Guy makes racial jokes and I enjoy that and don't feel alienated at all. Perhaps you shouldn't assume everyone is as tragically insecure as you are.

In fact, I look at BET's lineup, and most of it is just programming that focuses on black people that you wouldn't find on other networks.

My entire post was referring to other networks besides BET, and how there aren't any that go out of their way to alienate people like BET does. ;)

[Moniker]

Yeah, but there's a difference between catering to a certain audience and alienating all others. If I love classic rock (and I do), and I watch Country Music Television, I don't say OMG THEY'RE ALIENATING MY MUSIC. I say "gee, they play country on that station because on stations like MTV and VH1, country rarely, if ever gets played". BET doesn't flash the words "kill whitey" and tell its viewers its for blacks only.

I don't know why you would feel alienated, but that doesn't mean the network alienates all other people, or even tries to. I don't see anyone complaining about Lifetime alienating them for showing movies where men are pigs and women are survivors, etc.

A white entertainment channel, I imagine, would cater to white audiences, like BET caters to black audiences. What kinds of shows would go on this network? If you could think of a 10 show lineup then maybe we can compare it against NBC, ABC, or CBS and see how strong of a point you have.

[SithDrummer]

Originally posted by dys
Or a movie.. White Men Can't Jump. How bout "Black Men Can't Swim"?

roflmao