North Korea

[ElevatioN]

I think we should be very careful with our dealings with North Korea and totally outrule the possiblity of invading them. Sure we have 15,000 nuclear warheads, but they got that giant sun laser thing. I dont wanna mess with that.

[QBert]

North Korea...

best policy is to wait it out, IMHO. Publicly state that you will leave it to South Korea to negotiate, but in reality, just play the waiting game.

They're starving, resorting to canabilism, and suffering. As much as I hate to say it, best to leave it be, then offer to help when Kim Jong Il is no longer in power.

[QBert]

Originally posted by dys
Giant sun laser thing? That sounds menacing as hell, what's that all about?


like austin powers

[PurpleHaze]

Or like straight out of the latest of the increasingly shitty James Bond movies.

Good post elevation :rolleyes:

[othell]

Originally posted by PurpleHaze
Good post elevation :rolleyes:

I 2nd your sarcasm. :(

[philly]

Originally posted by PurpleHaze
Or like straight out of the latest of the increasingly shitty James Bond movies.

...you sir are correct. :(

[QBert]

Yeah, I'm sure Beijing, Seoul, and Tokyo would appreciate a nuclear explosion a couple hundred miles away from them. :D

[BluRRPy]

Originally posted by QBert
Yeah, I'm sure Beijing, Seoul, and Tokyo would appreciate a nuclear explosion a couple hundred miles away from them. :D
Nuke em' too

[Obscure]

The Japanese already got nuked last century, remember? It's somebody else's turn.

[QBert]

of course, not to mention the tens of thousands of US troops there as well.

Don't forget the expatriates.

Blur/filmz, keep shit like that in the cesspool. This is for intelligent discussion. If you can't refrain from speaking rationally, keep your pie hole shut.

[Halfbreed]

Originally posted by QBert
North Korea...

best policy is to wait it out, IMHO. Publicly state that you will leave it to South Korea to negotiate, but in reality, just play the waiting game.

They're starving, resorting to canabilism, and suffering. As much as I hate to say it, best to leave it be, then offer to help when Kim Jong Il is no longer in power.

So your solution of "just play the waiting game" is to let the citizens continue to starve at the expense of a dictators weapons programs?

[QBert]

I dunno if we have the right to go in there.

Then I consider the risk that he actually has a nuclear weapon (which I am in doubt of) and the risk it poses to the western world.

I would like nothing more than to see a reunited Korea, but I tend to feel that waiting is a better decision than acting.

[NT.]

Originally posted by knockout
So your solution of "just play the waiting game" is to let the citizens continue to starve at the expense of a dictators weapons programs?

Remember, in today's world, freeing citizens from a ruthless dictator is no excuse to invade a country.

[philly]

Originally posted by NT.
Remember, in today's world, freeing citizens from a ruthless dictator is no excuse to invade a country.

Nope, you also need confidential proof of WMD and terrorist training camps......:rolleyes:

[Chow-Wagon]

what about the massive prison camps they have, one of which is bigger than the washington, DC area (and ringed with AA missles).

I'll see if I can dig up the article on it.

That laser your talking about is either not real or not that great. Either your thinking about the big laser in James Bond.. lol. Or your thinking about a similar laser Canada has called the Tigers Eye which I think is mounted on tanks and shit.

[Moniker]

Okay, so North Korea is developing weapons of mass destruction, and has a ruthless dictator.

But they also have a army that can put up a fight... Gee, Bush was so ballsy when he beat up on a country that could barely fight back but when faced with a real threat we just leave it all alone.

I for one would like to know how anyone can justify going to war with Iraq, but not with North Korea.

[QBert]

not all WMD are the same.

A nuclear weapon is VASTLY different than a bioagent loaded scud.

[othell]

Originally posted by Moniker
Okay, so North Korea is developing weapons of mass destruction, and has a ruthless dictator.

But they also have a army that can put up a fight... Gee, Bush was so ballsy when he beat up on a country that could barely fight back but when faced with a real threat we just leave it all alone.

I for one would like to know how anyone can justify going to war with Iraq, but not with North Korea.

That's called politics.

And also strategy.

You should look back and see what NK's stance was prior to the war in Iraq. Then look at it during, or soon afterwards. NK started singing a different tune.

There are also other political difficulties with going to war with NK... Oh yeah! China! Last time we fought NK and kicked their asses, we were forced to a stalemate because of a shitload of Chinese coming to help. Now, China and NK's relationship is not what it was back during the Korean War, but attacking NK would definately be a big chance with China next door.

[Tripwire]

NK has China more to worry about than the United States.

First off, China is slowly becoming more capitalistic everyday. They will eventually become a democracy, but it will not happen for probably 30-50 years. If North Korea tried to attack the US, China (and even Russia) would attack them before the US.

Second, NK will not attack SK with nukes. Nothing is dumber than attacking your neighbor with the intent to take their land when you, in the process, make the land unlivable, kill its inhabitants, and damage your own land as well.

[Moniker]

A nuclear weapon is VASTLY different than a bioagent loaded scud. Err, the same scud's we can't seem to find?

And if it's politics and strategy, then what was the sense of urgency to go to war with Iraq? We had to go ASAP, but now we can play the waiting game with NK?

I don't know, it just seems to me that maybe invading Iraq had very little to do with the threat of WMD's that were aimed at us and ready to fire (that we still can't seem to find).

[QBert]

Originally posted by othell

There are also other political difficulties with going to war with NK... Oh yeah! China! Last time we fought NK and kicked their asses, we were forced to a stalemate because of a shitload of Chinese coming to help.

Actually, I believe it happened like this.. roughly.

Russians in what was North Korea start pushing south.
UN (read US) decide to get involved in the sake of anti-communist interests. Lead by MacAurthur, the UN pushes the Russians back to the Chinese border, but halted by Truman.
China, fearing that the US will invade China, gets involved and sends troops.
The US, poorly outfitted and outnumbered, fight. The line of scrimmage moves seveal times, but Truman fires MacAurthur, and the US forces lose ground.

Cease-fire called in 1953, and still in effect today. Officially, North Korea and South Korea are still at war. In reality, the Koreans didn't fight at all. They spent most of the war either working manual labor on Russian/Chinese or US bases/camps, or being tortured/raped by the the Russians/Chinese/US soldiers.

[QBert]

Originally posted by Tripwire
NK has China more to worry about than the United States.

First off, China is slowly becoming more capitalistic everyday. They will eventually become a democracy, but it will not happen for probably 30-50 years. If North Korea tried to attack the US, China (and even Russia) would attack them before the US.

Second, NK will not attack SK with nukes. Nothing is dumber than attacking your neighbor with the intent to take their land when you, in the process, make the land unlivable, kill its inhabitants, and damage your own land as well.

I think China has made it abundantly clear that they support NK. It's one of the 2 communist allies left. Perhaps in 30-50 years... maybe even as soon as 10 years, things will change. But anything in the near future, I wouldn't count on China doing anything hostile towards NK.

second, I think you're missing the key issue regarding the use of NK nukes. Seoul would probably be one of the primary targets for North Korea. Consider this:

Seoul has a urban population of 20 million people (Korea has roughly 50 million people)
Seoul is 46 km from North Korea.
Seoul is 716 miles from Tokyo, Japan (31 million urban population)
Seoul is 598 miles from Beijing, China (9.3 million urban population)
Seoul is 542 miles from Shanghai, China (12 million urban population)
Seoul is 1307 miles from Hong Kong, China (8.2 million urban)
Seoul is 922 miles from Taipei, Taiwan (7.7 million urban)
Seoul is 1624 miles from Manila, Philippines (13.5 million urban)
Seoul is 573 miles from Nagoya, Japan (8.5 million urban)

A 1 Megaton nuclear explosion will distribute 90 rems at about 250 miles in 14 days assuming a 15 mph steady wind. This does not include radioactive rain that ensues. Currently, Russian ICBMs are around 60 Megatons, and US ICBMs are about 50 MT.

South Korea is roughly the size of Virginia, and quarters about 100,000 US troops + familes and personel. Those will recieve 300 rems easy, and will suffer immediate death or internal damage.

My point is, North Korea has more of a deterrent from attacking South Korea with nuclear weapons b/c of the political ramifications of retaliation and of self-preservation than anything else.

[QBert]

Originally posted by Moniker
Err, the same scud's we can't seem to find?

And if it's politics and strategy, then what was the sense of urgency to go to war with Iraq? We had to go ASAP, but now we can play the waiting game with NK?

I don't know, it just seems to me that maybe invading Iraq had very little to do with the threat of WMD's that were aimed at us and ready to fire (that we still can't seem to find).

The Iraqi scuds have nothing to do with it. A nuclear explosion affects a massive area, unlike bio agents which decompose. see previous post for some details.

The waiting game now w/ NK comes from the fact that having a nuke is a "trump card." Personally, I don't think they have a working nuclear missle. however, if they do, and they used it anywhere in the East asian area, the attacking country would be accountable to a score of nations nearby who might suffer from the aftermath.

If NK has a nuke, then the US better be damn sure that Japan, China, South Korea, Taiwan, Okinawa, Hong Kong, Russia, etc are all on the same page as far as risk assessment before attacking.

The justification of invading iraq was that Saddam Hussien openly supported terrorist organizations with weapons and money. North Korea is more of a "loose cannon" that needs to be contained. These are key differences to be considered.

The bio agents and chem agents Hussein had are minor compared to a nuclear weapon. In addition, there weren't 100,000 US military and hundreds of thousands of US expatriates within 1000 miles of iraq.

[Tripwire]

Funny thing is that in a way, this whole thing is playing out like a 1970s Bond film. It's not the Communists who are the bad guys, but some rouge terrorist with connections to corrupt officals within those countries so they can get a nuclear weapon to attack something.

I personally don't see the point in NK having a 2 million person standing army. For defensive purposes is way overblown and for offensive purposes it who get annilated before it got a chance to get any ground.

[BluRRPy]

QB I didn't totally understand your analysis of attacking Seoul.

A 1 Megaton nuclear explosion will distribute 90 rems at about 250 miles in 14 days assuming a 15 mph steady wind. This does not include radioactive rain that ensues. Currently, Russian ICBMs are around 60 Megatons, and US ICBMs are about 50 MT

So obviously we're not talking 60/50 * 250 miles of damage here, but what are the ramifications of that increase in MT? I don't even know what a MT is, other than million tons (jesus christ) of something that's gonna blow people up. Are you saying that a nuclear explosion in Seoul would devestate all those nearby cities you listed, or at least have nuclear debris spreading that far? That's obscenely destructive. I get uneasy just thinking about it.

[FireWall]

I'm not certain who it was, but someone above was discussing China. This person explained that China is in the process of capitalist restoration (which is correct), and that we can expect the establishment of "democracy" in the coming period.

I'm going to take the opportunity to address China, and clear up the mild confusion above.

First of all, it is important to understand what China is. The vast majority of you, undoubtedly consider China communist. Unfortunately, those of you who do, are entirely incorrect, and I'll explain why.

When classifying a particular society, the first question that must be asked is: "Who controls the means of production?"

In China, the means of production are, for the most part, nationalized. However, planning is not democratic, and the economy is under the control of a bureaucracy. In other words, China is proletarian Bonapartist (Stalinist). It is "proletarian" because capitalism does not exist, and it is "Bonapartist" because the workers' do not democratically plan the economy. The term Stalinism is derived from Joseph Stalin, who first established this form of society within the Soviet Union, and undermined the healthy workers' state which was established by the 1917 Russian revolution.

However, in China, unlike in Russia, a healthy workers' state never existed. The Chinese revolution did not take place on the classical lines of the Russian revolution in 1917 or the Chinese revolution of 1925-27. The working class played no important role. Mao came to power on the basis of a mighty peasant war, in the traditions of China. The only way Mao was able to win the civil war of 1944-49 was by offering a program of social liberation to the peasant armies of Chiang Kai-shek, who was armed and backed by American imperialism. But the Stalinist leaders of the peasant Red Army had no perspective of leading the workers to power as did Lenin and Trotsky in 1917. When Mao's peasant armies arrived at the cities, and the workers spontaneously occupied the factories and greeted Mao's armies with red flags, Mao gave the order that these demonstrations should be suppressed and the workers were shot.

China could not possibly be communist, because it was never a healthy workers' state from the start! Likewise, Cuba, North Korea, etc. are also not communist. As I explained above, China is Stalinist, in the process of capitalist restoration, making sure to avoid the pitfalls that the Soviet Union fell into along the way.

Returning to the beginning of my post, I will take the time now to address the comment on the establishment of democracy in the coming period.

China is not known for having democratic tendencies, and in my opinion, it is very unlikely that China will restore itself to a society of bourgeois Democracy similar to the United States. It is much more likely that we will witness the restoration of capitalism, accompanied by another form of Bonapartism in the coming period, and such a regime would be very unstable.

[Moniker]

Wouldn't dropping a bomb that does all that damage end up creating a ocean-wide tsunami on the Pacific? Cause that would be really bad news for the west coast of the Americas.

As for China, I think it is one of the only Communist states that the U.S. have never really interfered with. They're very isolationist, but they've come really far, so I think China, at the very least, is some food for thought.

[QBert]

Originally posted by BluRRPy
QB I didn't totally understand your analysis of attacking Seoul.



So obviously we're not talking 60/50 * 250 miles of damage here, but what are the ramifications of that increase in MT? I don't even know what a MT is, other than million tons (jesus christ) of something that's gonna blow people up. Are you saying that a nuclear explosion in Seoul would devestate all those nearby cities you listed, or at least have nuclear debris spreading that far? That's obscenely destructive. I get uneasy just thinking about it.

Well, not all the cities i listed, but some, depending on factors such as wind, rain, season, etc. But it's not an unlikely scenario that with the right combination of effects, Tokyo could suffer massive casualties (and generations of genetic defects)

You are precisely right in that all a MT is a megaton... (1000 tons of TNT).. but that is the force of explosion at ground zero. The Modern ICBMs will explode hundreds of feet in the air to create a larger affected area, and will also be carried by the wind easier. The area of damage increase with the increased MT is more geometric than linear. I'm not a nuclear physicist or weapons engineer, but I'd guess that the immediate danger zone (5000 rems or more) would be within 400-500 mile range, and anything within ~1000 miles (assuming steady wind) would suffer immediate internal damage.

Kiev wasn't an explosion, just a nuclear meltdown, and the radiation cloud carried all the way to Sweden (~600 miles) with irregular winds, I believe. (no winds at first, then it headed south, then went north)

[QBert]

Originally posted by Moniker
Wouldn't dropping a bomb that does all that damage end up creating a ocean-wide tsunami on the Pacific? Cause that would be really bad news for the west coast of the Americas.

As for China, I think it is one of the only Communist states that the U.S. have never really interfered with. They're very isolationist, but they've come really far, so I think China, at the very least, is some food for thought.

I doubt a tsunami would occur, let alone travel 7 thousand miles across the Pacific Ocean. Nothing similar happened after the Bikini Atol (20 MT weapon was dropped).

I wouldn't agree w/ "come so far." I don't think it's fair to place occidental values on the Chinese. Some embrace western philosophy, others do not. There is not the social pressure for individualism in eastern Asia (or anywhere for that matter) as there is in the United States.

[Moniker]

Well I didn't mean in terms of what we considered "going far" in Western society, but in the way their government isn't as aggressive as it used to be.

[QBert]

Originally posted by Moniker
Well I didn't mean in terms of what we considered "going far" in Western society, but in the way their government isn't as aggressive as it used to be.

hehe, rgr that. now if they only would provide more disclosure about health epidemics! :-)

[ElevatioN]

During the bikini atoll bomb being tested, didnt two japenese fisherman die? Man first WWII then that, and then this NK thing, Japan seems to be the nuclear whipping bitch of the world

[WoBMatt]

Originally posted by QBert
[BYou are precisely right in that all a MT is a megaton... (1000 tons of TNT).. [/B]

Missing a few orders of magnitude there QBert...

The rating system of nuclear weapons goes like this:

1 KiloTon of TNT equvilent yield = 1 KT
1 MegaTon of TNT equvilent yield = 1000 KT = 1,000,000 Tons of TNT

For comparison, the MOAB (Biggest non-nulcear weapon in the US arsenal) has a weight of 21,000 Pounds... Let's say the case and avionics weigh 1,000 pounds. This means that there are 20,000 pounds of explosives (chemical energy). This in nuclear weapon terms is 10 tons of TNT.

The bombs dropped in World War II on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were on the order of 15 to 20 KT. Or, in other words about 1,500 to 2,000 MOABs detonated simulataneously in the same position.

Yeah.

Then you get to modern stuff. Biggest one that I know of is from the Soviet Union/Russia weiging in at 100 MegaTons (Kiev class maybe going from memory).

100 MT = 100,000 KT = 100,000,000 Tons of TNT = 10,000,000 MOABs in the same spot. 10 million MOABs... All in a warhead the size of a largish car.

Nuclear weapons are just really big bombs. The only difference is in the after effects of radiation due to the way the enormous amout of energy is created by either spliting Urainium/Plutonium (fission bomb) or fusing Hydrogen into Helium (fusion bomb/H-Bomb... Usually kick started by a fission bomb).

Well if we do go to war with China with China/Russia it won't be anything like Iraq, NK army troop wise in numbers is larger than both US and Russia (barely) but in all the other areas we are more advanced/better. Still if we went in you could expect alot more causiltites than the Iraqi wars put together... it might even be like the 2nd vietnam sort of war... jungles and shit in asia. But fuck it, we need war, war is good and combat is good for our troops (soon to me, 1 of my brothers).

[DarKCroW]

Originally posted by Nitz
But fuck it, we need war, war is good and combat is good for our troops (soon to me, 1 of my brothers).

I hope you don't mean that.

[WoBMatt]

1984 called for you Nitz... They want you back.

[Foo]

The problem here isnt about nukes.As we speak N.K. has hundreds of artilery guns aimed at Seoul and Inchon. I myself have been to S. Korea several times to visit family. N.K. hasnt been playing by the rules either. A couple years ago S.K. found a forth tunnel N.K attempted to dig in the DMZ.

[larcain]

Qbert, I believe you are correct in your assertion that a waiting game would be the correct move at this time. The time to act would have been before they developed nukes, say... around '94 ish. Before we gave them 4 billion dollars and helped them build reactors in exchange for the promise to not build nukes. Great deal it turned out for us. Took to presidents to do it. Bill and Jimmy. The Abbot and Costello of foreign policy. Hey Jimmy did get a nobel for that, so it wasn't in vain.

[Jon]

Recently the US has actually pulled their troops back off of the North Korea/South Korea border to show they have no intentions of hostility (so they say). Funny thing is this caused North Korea to protest this as a Act of Agression from the US because now with the US backed away from the border they are no longer within firing range of the North Korean weapons but the North Koreans are still within range for the Americans. I don't know if this was done on purpose but it was a very smart move.

[othell]

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/07/15/1058034977622.html

[ElevatioN]

what a bunch of clowns. i bet dingo's ate kim jong il's baby and he wants revenge.

[Rimuladas]

we should ignore korea, and let China & Russia lay the whoop ass down. China could stomp Korea in a heart beat if they wanted to. So much for Commies loving each other eh?

they have a sun laser thing?

[othell]

Originally posted by PGrass
they have a sun laser thing?

Who ever thinks they do should go to www.dictionary.com and look up the term "fiction" and then see if they can figure out how it relates to Hollywood and these things called films.

-----------------------------

Rimuladas,

China and Russia will do no more than talk. Unless the UN starts to really get involved.

[Halfbreed]

Originally posted by othell
Who ever thinks they do should go to www.dictionary.com and look up the term "fiction" and then see if they can figure out how it relates to Hollywood and these things called films.

-----------------------------

Rimuladas,

China and Russia will do no more than talk. Unless the UN starts to really get involved.

They actually do have some sort of strange laser that they were shooting at our aircraft. Personally I believe it was laser targeting but hey who knows what that maniacal leader is up to. It was public information. Maybe you should refer to the dictionary. Try the "I live under a rock" version. Better reading for you.

[Lord-Hobo]

I think, personally, the best idea, if we were to sock it to NK, as in diplomacy fails and all that crap, that usually happens before countries go to war, si talk to china, about helping us out here

As it was stated above and earlier, NK and China aren't as cool with each other as they were before, so ask them to bring some severalthousand troups, and put them up along where we left, along the Border.

Not only will this bring huge pressure on Nk, too have to face China and the US in the South as well as CHina in the North, fter all CHina has a huge military, they can do such things.

This would be a smart move for china and such, as it would get them playing on the superpowr level, and be inthe spotlight as far as world politics go. And if war does happen, the Chinese military can prove to the world, what they are cappable of.

Just an idea..

[ElevatioN]

noo it is fiction.. its from the new james bond movie