U.S. To Clear Friendly Fire Pilots

[PurpleHaze]

^ That's the headline on most major Canadian papers on this fine morning.

If you're not too familiar with what I'm talking about here:
National Post (http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id=41042ADD-B458-4940-ADA2-66F293DA09DE)

Toronto Star (http://www.torontostar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1056021841648&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154)

and for some US perspective

CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/19/mistaken.bombing.ap/index.html)

Basically this guy was in the air, saw some shooting and felt he was under attack. He requested permission to return fire and it was denied. Moments later he declared self-defense and dropped a 225 kilogram, laser-guided bomb on the target. Turns out it was a bunch of Canadian troops conducting live fire exercises, shooting horizontally (according to a joint US-Canadian board of inquiry) not vertically in a manner that would endanger the pilots.

So although a board of inquiry determined the pilots were at fault in the incident, non-judicial punishment was recommended. They were looking at 64 years in jail if convicted in a court martial and now, because they couldn't be sure a guilty verdict would be obtained (explain that to me, "yeah they're guilty but when it gets down to it we can't prove it" :rolleyes:) they may get off with as little as a letter of reprimand.

Despite this we get shit on when we don't wanna go to war with the US again. Go figure.

Plz read at least some of at least one of the articles. This has put me in my righteous anger mode so I'd rather not see dumb ass replies.

[VeeKaChu]

I agree the homicide charges were utterly ridiculous, and that they were even considered smacked of appeasement.

Declared or not, it was action in a time of war, and the armed forces themselves can deal with the malfeasance internally. The very idea that criminal charges could be considered does nothing but undermine the ability of these people to do their jobs with confidence, and without dangerous second-guessing.

Speaking of anger over some FF, has anyone seen the history channel documentary (or read any of the books) on the USS Liberty? Israelis nearly sunk an intelligence gathering ship of ours (that they obviously knew was american, despite their excuses later), killed a few guys and injured most of the crew, then we helped cover it up.

... and just so they could take the Golan Heights without us bothering them until it was too late. To think we're still allies with these people. :rolleyes:

[PurpleHaze]

I find it utterly moronic that our troops can even be prosecuted with ANY crime during a time of war. These are our guys volunteering for war, and then being charged with killing people in war. Clearance or not, if the pilot felt anything related to an attack on him, he should seek measures to stop it immediately.

I don't even care if it was Canada dropping a bomb on us, or France for that matter...but anyone put in that situation should do that exact thing, fight back. This is war, not police duties; anyone being on trial for FF shouldn't be held responsible unless it was purposely on a mission to kill allied troops against all command, and knowing he was doing it. Basically, a trator. Anything beyond that shouldn't be persecutionable. (is that a word?)

Tell that to the 4 families that lost loved ones. I can see it now.
"Umm yeah your kids got blown up by an irresponsible cowboy with a multi-million dollar toy but we're not gonna do anything cuz THIS IS WAR. SUCK IT UP GRANDMA!"

Did you read any of it?

He was ordered by his flight leader, who was in the EXACT same situation, to hold his fire but even though there was no fire directed anywhere near the planes he disregarded the order and dropped the bomb anyway.

I don't give a hoot if they're volunteering or what they're fighting for, if they're gonna be flying those big expensive machines and packing enough explosive to turn a few city blocks into rubble they damn well better be able to remain cool-headed under pressure.

Oh wait I bet all that speed they took probably made it a bit tough.

This guy was a former Top Gun instructor. You've all seen the movie. That means he taught the best the US has to offer. "Well it's war" is no excuse for such a reckless reaction. Panic should not be an option for these guys, they're in control of too powerful a machine to not remain calm and calculating.

In a state of panic he disregarded orders and blew up a bunch of Canadian troops. There was no heat of battle, it was small arms fire that wasn't even directed at the planes. If the pilots don't get punished someone damn well better. Someone fucked up.

Who gives speed to pilots? That has DUH written all over it.

[snaggle]

If it had been our own guys...we most likely would've not even heard about it.

[Obscure]

Originally posted by VeeKaChu
I agree the homicide charges were utterly ridiculous, and that they were even considered smacked of appeasement.

Declared or not, it was action in a time of war, and the armed forces themselves can deal with the malfeasance internally. The very idea that criminal charges could be considered does nothing but undermine the ability of these people to do their jobs with confidence, and without dangerous second-guessing.

I actually agree with Veek for once! :D

*** WHEE ***

[Moniker]

That'll learn ya canucks to go war'in with us.

[VeeKaChu]

Originally posted by von_Klagg
So if these two speeded up clowns had displayed massive negligence in dropping bombs on your own guys it would have been fine as well?

What you are saying is that any dolt can fuck up as bad as they can through any combination of stupidity, incompetence and negligence, killing people randomly, and it's ok? I'll kiss your ass at State and Madison and give you half an hour to draw a crowd if you can find one example of me saying that this heinous negligence was "ok".

[Gargamel]

Originally posted by Moniker
That'll learn ya canucks to go war'in with us.

And it's intellectual responses like these that get me through the day...

[philly]

Originally posted by Gargamel
And it's intellectual responses like these that get me through the day...

eh...its Moniker attempt at sarcasm. :p


Although it was during a military action at night at 15,000 feet I could understand the inability to determine hostiles or friendlies, but the fact still stands that both pilots were ordered to hold fire and to disingage. They simply could have walked away.....at a high rate of speed mind you. So I would say they should be dealt a more severe punishment based on that alone. It was an unfortunate accident and I think the familes of those men and Canada deserve an apology and some justification for their loss.

We had a hard enough time finding countries to back us, then we bomb their troops and now we don't see the need to prosecute those involved when they are directly at fault......come on.:rolleyes:

[Frostbyte]

I was initially quite pissed off when I saw that yesterday, but I've calmed down since.

Let's wait and see what kind of punishment they are given internally before we assume that they are just getting a slap on the wrist. Presumably we will be informed right?

Friendly fire is, unfortunately, inevitable. I think it could have (and SHOULD have) been avoided in this particular case.

Either U.S. pilots do this more than anyone else, or they get more new coverage. Not sure. I think it is just percentages working against them. (ie. they bomb the shit out of more people, and are therefore more likely to bomb the wrong people)


A U.S. warplane attacked a convoy of Kurdish Peshmerga guerrillas Sunday in northern Iraq, killing 18 people and wounding 45 in an apparent incident of "friendly fire." April 6, 2003

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/06/sprj.irq.kurdish.bombing/

Two RAF pilots were killed last Sunday when their GR4 Tornado was engaged near the Kuwaiti border by a Patriot missile battery.

On Friday Lance Corporal of Horse Matty Hull died when a US A-10 tankbuster aircraft fired on two armoured vehicles.

In the same article there IS record of British friendly fire, so to be fair, I'll mention it as well.

In a third incident, two British soldiers were killed when their Challenger 2 tank was mistakenly fired upon by British comrades in another tank.

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_765874.html?menu=


Up to 37 US marines were injured yesterday and their armoured vehicles destroyed, left, by "friendly fire", amid fierce fighting close to the strategic southern Iraqi city of Nassiriya.
British and French reporters travelling with US forces said that marines at a command post came under mortar and shell fire from two US units sent in to attack a group of Iraqis.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,924259,00.html


WASHINGTON (Army News Service, Dec. 5, 2001) - Three Special Forces soldiers were killed and 19 were wounded north of Kandahar, Afghanistan, when a 2,000-pound U.S. bomb missed it's target and hit in close proximity to friendly forces Dec. 4.

http://www.dtic.mil/armylink/news/Dec2001/a20011205afghanbomb2.html


Friendly fire is, unfortunately, inevitable.

But I don't understand how someone can be given a direct order to "hold fire" and then ignore the fucking order. :mad:

[Frostbyte]

I have been reading more and more about this today, and I think that they made the right decision for Umbach.

Umbach, the mission commander, was issued a letter of reprimand for "leadership failures." He had asked to retire, and the general recommended it be approved.

He wasn't the one who ignored the order, as far as I can see. He was supposed to be in charge though, so I think a letter or reprimand is reasonable.

But Schmidt should at least have his wings taken away.

[PurpleHaze]

Yeah that was my take on it as well. I was unfairly lumping the two together. Umbach is not responsible for someone ignoring a direct order.

Schmidt on the other hand should be grounded at the absolute least.

Take the guys fucking wings away omfg... its war.. so the fuck what. War does not give you the right to kill your own guys accidental or not. Letting that go unpunished could mean its ok for some stupid fucking american pilot to drop bombs all day long because he feels like hes being fired on.

THE FUCKING TROOPS WERE SHOOTING HORIZONTAL.. HORIZONTAL MEANS LIKE THIS <------>. I could see if the Canadian troops were pointing their guns in the air and shooting but fuck thats stupid.. they were in an area known to be occupied by Canadian forces..

American Pilot - "OMFG THESE LIGHTS ARE BLINKING ON MY SCREEN LETS DROP A BOMB BECAUSE I THINK WE ARE UNDER ATTACK OMFG!!!!!"

dont forget the canadians who died were also volunteering to fight, alogn side your american troops. War tiem does not make what happened ok.. if some canadian troops shot up a bunch of american troops beaucse they thought there were under attack it would be different.

[Jigga|]

The sector that he was flying over (which was quite quite large) was cleared and was known to have canadian troops in it. There were tracers comming out of the guns, only a couple of countries there had these types of guns one was canada. the tracers were visible to be going horizontal , not upwards. he was told not to drop it and im pretty sure he was told that sector again was where canadian troops were staying etc etc. Two things must have happened, he had launched the thing before he was told on the radio not to. and didnt bother stopping the bomb. or he knowingly still dropped it. of course im sure he prob fucked up... still tho i dont think the argument of "This is a time of war, casualities like these will happen" dont apply..

[Exe]

It's a known myth/rumour/fact (take your pick) that the American military has been experimenting with drugs to keep their soldiers awake for days - perhaps these pilots were so wired they had no idea what they were really seeing and, therefore, dropped their bombs - who knows!?!?

Regardless, the military has an enormous responsibility to use weapons of mass destruction in a *responsible* fashion.

[SithDrummer]

I would guess that none of us were there to see it happen, and frequently civilians wouldn't/don't understand the entirety of a military situation like this, so I would advise everyone that wasn't there to temper their opinions.

[PurpleHaze]

Yeah the only people who were there are those that got a bomb dropped on them and those getting in shit for dropping it.

Yeah let's not have opinions on incompetence and negligence just because we didn't watch the explosion.

[el-inerto_]

Yeah, one of the pilots graduated from my highschool in St. Louis, so we had him come for a fund raiser to help him out with all this..Where'd our money go? I gave him $1! :(

[SithDrummer]

Just keep in mind PH that a) something bad happened and b) the media is going to try and put the most controversial spin on it as possible, to get high ratings. We don't know the whole story, probably never will.