Why Captains Only?

[WackyIraqi]

I don't think STA's polls should be reserved for captains. Currently, only about 8% of the members of STA are even allowed to vote.
I wouldn't be against the current if STA captains actually had their clans vote, but this doesn't happen often enough to make the voting process fair. Giving everyone the oppurtunity to vote would better ensure that the leagues will fit the players' needs.
The only argument I can think of against giving all players suffrage is that it would be hard to control allowing only rostered players voting rights, and it would be hard to integrate an account system such as OGL's or IGL's which could ensure that each rostered player gets to vote, and only gets to vote once on each topic.

[Twizted]

You should be bitching at your clan captains, not STA. It is your clan captains fault for not hearing the voice of their team, not ours.

[:+:KapPa:+:]

I'm going to have to agree with wacki on this one even though I hate him.

yeah, i'm agreeing with this too. clan captains are lazy asses, i mean, when you guys hold map votes how many of them actually respond? let the competitive community vote, and we'll be playing maps that we want to play.

[WackyIraqi]

I think it would be much easier to change the one league than the hundred clans.

Also, with this system, everyone who cares about the issue gets to vote. If a clan leader doesn't give a shit and doesn't vote on an issue important to one of his players, the player (and a fair vote) is left out.

Why don't you want to change STA, anyways? I think allowing everyone to vote would be a big step in TFC leagues.

[Fattie]

[5:56pm] [@[v|Wax]] I posted a really important TF political issue in TFC discussion
[5:56pm] [@[v|Wax]] And no one is replying
[5:56pm] [@[v|Wax]] This is bullshit
[5:56pm] [@[v|Wax]] I got more replies to a thread about Jay Leno

You're such a whore for replies. Scunt. I do agree tho, but you're still a scunt. I also agree with KapPa about hating you.

I agree, if league seek the community's opinion or poll the community for anything, it should be for everyone, not just captains. The biggest problem with polling everyone, though, is making sure they don't vote more than once, since the STA site doesn't have a login or account feature for clan members.

Still, I would be totally in favour of scrapping captains forums in all the league and moving the discussions into the open, where a more people will get a say in things.

[SlaX]

If STA sticks to the Captains only vote, I suggest that you make public the ones that did and didn't vote. Don't show their vote, just show who participated. That way, say my CL doesn't participate, I can yell at him.

Of course, I don't have to worry about my CL not voting. :cool:

Originally posted by :+:KapPa:+:
I'm going to have to agree with wacki on this one even though I hate him.

^

Originally posted by Numnutt
lol @ a jew actually making a good point

^

PS. I hate you, waqi

[BlueFire]

Originally posted by SlaX
If STA sticks to the Captains only vote, I suggest that you make public the ones that did and didn't vote. Don't show their vote, just show who participated. That way, say my CL doesn't participate, I can yell at him.

Of course, I don't have to worry about my CL not voting. :cool:

Unfortunately, the STA site doesn't let us see who's voted and who hasn't, which has been a big problem for us.

[DarthGreg]

95% of the community don't have opinions worth hearing. It is the captains' job to represent their teams and express an opinion that is worth hearing.

[AGT-Shady]

Originally posted by DarthGreg
95% of the community don't have opinions worth hearing. It is the captains' job to represent their teams and express an opinion that is worth hearing.

Bringing the cesspool to every issue in STA or any league is ridiculous. If your captain is a tool who either doesn't vote, or doesn't vote with the best interests of your clan, find a new fucking clan.

And BF - you could start requiring each clan to add a comment to their vote, be an easy way to tally who did and who did NOT vote.

I'd be in favor of forcing a rep change if a clans captain continually ignores the system.

[Flare]

"95% of the community don't have opinions worth hearing. It is the captains' job to represent their teams and express an opinion that is worth hearing."

LOL. I could probably take that quote, change a few words, and match it with one of our forefathers from like 1790.

Yes, way to think 95% of our community are complete idiots that they don't deserve an opinion in a simple map vote, you elitist prick. Hope your dick falls off.

[Fornaught]

One clan, one vote.

It is a league policy vote not an opinion poll.

[BlueFire]

Originally posted by AGT-Shady
Bringing the cesspool to every issue in STA or any league is ridiculous. If your captain is a tool who either doesn't vote, or doesn't vote with the best interests of your clan, find a new fucking clan.

And BF - you could start requiring each clan to add a comment to their vote, be an easy way to tally who did and who did NOT vote.

I'd be in favor of forcing a rep change if a clans captain continually ignores the system.

Actually, I asked Dela if he could implement something to tell us if they voted, and he's going to make it say "No Comment" for all the clans that voted without one.

[WackyIraqi]

Originally posted by Fornaught
One clan, one vote.

It is a league policy vote not an opinion poll.

Why not one player, one vote? I still have not heard one decent argument against it.

And Darthgreg: You were the captain of mH, but now you aren't captain of TDA, right? (I'm totally assuming this, it's not the point whether it's true.) So now your opinions don't matter, they only did when you were captain?

[WendoL]

Originally posted by DarthGreg
95% of the community don't have opinions worth hearing. It is the captains' job to represent their teams and express an opinion that is worth hearing.


GO eliteist propaganda GO!! :p


seriously though, everyones opinion should hold merit, not just the captians. we are the majority who play in the league, not the captians.

[Sleepy Mexican]

I know! I'm gonna make 18 new members on my roster - all fake mind you - and they can all vote for what I want!

[WackyIraqi]

Now someone comes up with a good argument.

Is it possible to stop an IP from voting more than once?

If not, another possible solution is that to sign up, you must include a valid email address that is not from hotmail or geocities or the like, so you can't just make more of them. It's still not that hard to get around, though.

Unfortunately, no one seems to be taking this seriously enough for anyone to bother thinking of a solution.

[Cure]

"hope your dick falls off" lol.

Originally posted by Sleepy Mexican
I know! I'm gonna make 18 new members on my roster - all fake mind you - and they can all vote for what I want!

or we could try to put faith in the community and hope we don't lead ourselves to self-destruction.

i would say just tie it into the rosters.. and hope captains have enough responsibility to not whore out the system. We could always enforce some kind of punishment (months suspention and elimination of vote perminantly for that list of wonids) for abuse as well..

[FryGuy]

well only 9 people play per game on each team, so why should a tight team of 13 people have less say than a team of 25? The 13 people play more often than the 25, so their opinions should count more. Heck, it might even encourage clans to have more members on their roster just for having more say in league votes.

Personally I think there should be logins for each person since you already have the roster thing set up, and just have people vote, and their vote is counted as 1/(number of people voted in that clan), so that a clan could not have to make a vote on the whole, but rather 60% one way and 40% another.

[GhOsT]

For map votes and the like we always hold a poll in our own clan forum and then the top pics from that the captain sends in.

I agree with maybe making the voting for everyone. However, imo the captain's 1forum needs to be kept to the captains. I personally haven't seen the captain's forums, but i would assume that the discussion in there is somewhat mature. You open it to the public and you get pretty much the catacombs ver 2.0. I'm not even talking about the cesspool. Some of the threads in this forum get pretty pathetic.

[Sleepy Mexican]

It's like the presidential election. The states have so many points or whatever that go to the total. Gore had more support overall, but Bush won on this system. It's not perfectly ideal, but it's more anti-fraud.

For the record there HAS been open polls and or open discussions in the past that the STA brought up and every single time it came to be the votes favored temp bans over perm bans. This is the first time an OFFICIAL poll is taking place where the outcome will actually reflect the ruling.


Also if you have EVERYONE vote I assure you there would be a lot of biased or scared people to vote the way they want. Already people are trying to demand that the clans who vote yes to temp bans be exposed so they have to answer to the community for it. Why? Cause you want to intimidate clans into voting with the 'crowd/mob'


Everyone that plays for a clan has leadership, the leadership is responsible for making the decision on behalf of the clan, and the admins are responsbile for making rules or changing policy based on demand. If you're not happy with it because for the first time ever you may have to suck it up and LOSE deal with it. Cry more newb.

[polarity]

I would agree with making the vote available to every member of a team in STA. However, several valid points have already been addressed that present a great deal of concern as to the abuse of the system. A login system, tracking/controlling votes from a single IP address, and forced use of permanent e-mail accounts - any and all of these could be implemented and used successfully. I believe that FryGuy's suggestion is probably the best way to go. A system that would measure a clan's vote based on the percentage of members' votes one way or the other would most likely yield the best results. My only concern is to what lengths the administrators of the site must go to in order to make this idea a working reality.

[DarthGreg]

LOL. I could probably take that quote, change a few words, and match it with one of our forefathers from like 1790.

Yes, way to think 95% of our community are complete idiots that they don't deserve an opinion in a simple map vote, you elitist prick. Hope your dick falls off.
PEOPLE ARE IDIOTS, it's a proven fact, look at the man in the fucking white house. Elitist? Define elitism.

And Darthgreg: You were the captain of mH, but now you aren't captain of TDA, right? (I'm totally assuming this, it's not the point whether it's true.) So now your opinions don't matter, they only did when you were captain?
You are correct, I was leader and representative of mH, now that I'm in TDA I am not a league representative. However, PHISH and Virus accurately represent my opinions to the leagues. Their thoughts echo mine, if they didn't I probably wouldn't have joined TDA in the first place. The captain's opinion is the clan's opinion. That's how it has to work.

The key word here is represent. A single member of your clan is responsible for voting on your behalf. If you are not in a clan, appropriately you do not have an opinion on league matters.

[Loser]

My only concern is to what lengths the administrators of the site must go to in order to make this idea a working reality.
this is one of the bigger reasons why this idea is going to be a tough sell. there are well over a thousand players in the STA TFC leagues. who is going to pay for, host, and administer such a system?

[WackyIraqi]

Darthgreg: There are already enough factors to think about when looking for a clan. I don't think politics should have anything to do with the clan itself. A clan is an group of people who try to have fun playing TFC, it shouldn't be a political organization. Besides, how many clans say, "By the way, we're against temporary bans" during the tryout? With most team captains, politics are not an issue.

TFC politics would be easier to manage if everyone could vote. People wouldn't have to pass up on a clan because the leader does not agree with them about reduced explosion sprites. Now, you're probably thinking, "Who the hell would do that?" Exactly. Nobody. Players sacrifice politics in order to get into a clan they would otherwise love. If everyone can vote, people can impact the league in the way they want to, but without having to create a new clan or join a clan with certain political views.

When people try to take politics into account, it becomes very difficult to find a suitable clan.

[Ecks]

Really the only way to do this would be to have Fryguy's implementation of 1/number_of_people_in_clan. The thing is though, this is what the captains should be doing IN THE FIRST PLACE. Thinking that people will vote more if it's a public vote is naive as well. You'll get around the same percentage of people voting as you did before; people will bitch just as much.

A better way to go about it is to monitor who votes and who does not and then replace your captain if you find out they're not doing their job.

-Ecks

It's incredbile this game survives with all the whining and bickering that goes on. If you think it's possible to somehow make a legitimate voting system where ALL players are able to vote you're sadly mistaken. It's definetly not possible. The current system works. Clan leaders/rep's are the ones that vote and report and have access to the captains forum. If you're not happy with your clan or you don't have confidence in your leadership it's pretty simple...Quit. Who starts a clan so that everyone else can tell them what to do? People start clans so they can have control over the direction of their team and in the end have the ability to decide what's best for them based on feedback from thier members. Maybe you disagree, maybe not. But for the most part I think people are gettnig scared that temp bans MAY happen because the powerful mob wont be able to get 123123123123 people to vote no, instead of the leaders voting yes. Deal with it.

[[DO]-Worship]

splash splash mother fucker.

[Tone-Loc]

If you want an accurate vote, and you want to get the highest # of votes possible... then why don't the division admins go to each clan and poll them directly? It's not like one admin will have to poll all 1,00 clans the STA has in it, or whatever.

Worked for me in the IGL, when we had 10 teams or 20.

And no, League rules/policies should never be determined by mass player popular votes. Your team is part of a greater whole, where your team, not YOU, are as equally important and have an equal voice with every other TEAM.

[WackyIraqi]

First of all, I for one am for temporary bans, but that is not what the thread is about. This is in general. Right now, the most important issue to clans should be voting for maps, considering sanctic_r and crazy_monkey_l. Also, I wouldn't quit a clan over politics. Letting everyone vote would allow even the very politically inclined the choice to join a clan with a captain who never votes.

Also, polling clans directly sounds like a good idea, but I strongly disagree with the rest of your post. What do you mean the team is more important than the player? Clans come and go, and the leaders with their political opinions come and go. The player is the only stable unit in a league.

Originally posted by billdoor
The biggest problem with polling everyone, though, is making sure they don't vote more than once, since the STA site doesn't have a login or account feature for clan members.

Make something like the Capt. Forums, only for Clan Members? Wouldn’t have to be anything special, just an extra forum where current clan members get rights. That way, if you want to vote, you can. You go to STA, you register in the forums but when you do, you include a couple things:

1) your wonid
2) clan you are currently in
3) email (any would work, including hotmail)
4) other place someone can contact you (IRC chan, ICQ, whatever)

That way everyone who wants to vote, can vote. If you want to vote that bad, take the time to register.

Ok, ok, now on to "what about people making fake accounts?" or the "ok, well, I just left the clan, am not in ANY STA clans, but I can still vote."

For the first... who would actually take the time to come up with diff wonids, emails, and ICQ numbers, just to get an extra vote or two? Just ship conformation # or pass to the ICQ/IRC/whatever, and have a link in the email that they have to put it in. sure people could still make stuff up off the top of their heads, but doing so, and then taking the time to follow thru with the authorization would be nuts.

For the second...give the clan leaders (or captains if you want to call them that) an extra little option that lets them see who all said they were in their clan. if they decide to cut someone, someone quits, or just goes inactive do to RL, the captain can then bring it to STA’s attention that so and so is no longer in a clan.

Ok, so it’s not completely fail proof. But it’s a start. I'm sure I made that more confusing than it should be, but I hope that you get the idea I was trying to get at. I may have flubbed up some of my sentences but a system like that = the win.

[Kurai]

Captains are the people who take leadership roles in the clan. They are the representation of what your clan stands for. In short, they represent what you think on issues. If your ideas dont agree with your captains, talk to him about it. If he doesnt vote, harass him until he does! Either way dont blame the league but blame your damn clan. On a seperate note, why would a clan that has 30 people have more say than a clan that has 20? Only 9 people play a round.

[Sleepy Mexican]

Originally posted by dys
I only read the first few posts, but I agree too. There's too many captains that just dont care.


Get them to care.

[GhOsT]

Originally posted by polarity
I would agree with making the vote available to every member of a team in STA. However, several valid points have already been addressed that present a great deal of concern as to the abuse of the system. A login system, tracking/controlling votes from a single IP address, and forced use of permanent e-mail accounts - any and all of these could be implemented and used successfully. I believe that FryGuy's suggestion is probably the best way to go. A system that would measure a clan's vote based on the percentage of members' votes one way or the other would most likely yield the best results. My only concern is to what lengths the administrators of the site must go to in order to make this idea a working reality.

You can't just track ip's and only allow 1 ip. I work at a college and i help keep up about 12 labs in one of te buildings. All our computers have real ip addresses to the outside. If i really wanted to, i could do about 150 votes by myself and they would all be from different ips.

[JoseyWales]

STA doesn't need every mind numbing idiot who plays TFC the opportunity to vote. The system works. The Captain's Forum is a very productive forum where business gets taken care of. The TFC community operates under the same mentality as a vicious mob. Only through the guidance of our admins and leaders is this community able to function.

If we allow all members to vote on critical issues, TFC will become more of a popularity contest than it already is. We will open a pandora's box, where clans must play a certain brand of game, or risk being expelled by the mass of 12-17 year old players, who would control this game and the leagues in a direct democracy system.

No, friends, let's keep STA just the way it is. Where semi-elected officials, known as clan representatives vote on pertinent issues, after debate and discussion takes place. Where one clan, regardless of competition level or members, gets one vote.

I think many of the uppity gamers who are trying to rabble rouse this issue, are simply trying to wrest power from those who have graciously and fairly held it for years: clan leaders and admins. What makes the 'vote' so important? It is not a blessing, but a burden. It goes with all the other struggles of leadership, things which your average TFC player could never understand. When you've lost friends over a strat you implemented, when you are blamed for losses, but never thanked, when you've lost a wife and a girlfriend in a two month period to win a 4a title, then you, friend, will understand the burden of command.

Allow the average Joe gamer, many of whom thing it's ok to test hacks and use them in pubs, the opportunity to vote, and I promise you will rue the day you allowed this to happen. Just remember, we're travelling down this river together: we need oarers, and we need steerers, we need lookouts and we need cooks, and we need captains. Everyone needs to do their part. You need to stop agitating for a vote, and ask yourself: "what is my duty to TFC?" For some of us, the answer will be 'debating and discussing pertinent issues to TFC'. For the lionshare of others, the answer will be "to first and foremost follow my leader's orders and to abide by the rules created by the fair and just bodies of the TFC establishment".

[Sleepy Mexican]

Originally posted by Kurai
Captains are the people who take leadership roles in the clan. They are the representation of what your clan stands for. In short, they represent what you think on issues. If your ideas dont agree with your captains, talk to him about it. If he doesnt vote, harass him until he does! Either way dont blame the league but blame your damn clan. On a seperate note, why would a clan that has 30 people have more say than a clan that has 20? Only 9 people play a round.




Sit down the argument is won.

[othell]

Originally posted by treget
yeah, i'm agreeing with this too. clan captains are lazy asses, i mean, when you guys hold map votes how many of them actually respond? let the competitive community vote, and we'll be playing maps that we want to play.

This is one of the stupidest reasons to want open polls. If a clan captain is a lazy ass he should not be the clan captain. It's as simple as that. Do not blame lazy clan captains on the league... The problem is with the individual clans.

Aside from that...

I like FryGuy's suggestion...

But I also agree way more bias and politics on a far larger scale would come into play with open polls....

In the end though... Having only clan captains vote is the simplest way to do such things. If clan captains do not vote don't bitch to the league. Bitch at/to the captain... perhaps have a bit of a power struggle and bitch slap him out of the position.