fascism

[BluRRPy]

Woah fascism sucks. Thank god we don't have to deal with this crap...

http://www.chetzar.com/fascism.html

[LuTze]

Yes our society kind of sucks.
I can see where its heading, but i dont' think saying haha look we're meet facist characteristics does anything.

Those characteristics are going to be evident in any gov't trying to gain control. I won't lie i am worried about the path our gov't (not just this administration) and our society is on. But i don't think throwing around facist labels is really productive.

I don't know how to describe it, but it seems like unneeded muckraking. You could throw any number of labels at our gov't. Do something productive like write your congressman or cnn or somthing.

Sorry alan i'll explain this stuff better at some point. bad articlution skills.

[othell]

I think the point that needs to be made is that any number of governments could exhibit many of those characteristics easily. The characteristics are also quite relative... and overly broad.

But since we can all tell where you are going with this...

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Nationalism is not evil. Making use of patriotic symbols and mottos and slogans etc. is not wrong in any way. We should not feel guilty in any way for expressing such things.

So with the US in mind... I see no issue.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Actually, I do not believe this applies to the US that much. We do have people locked up down in Cuba, but aside from that they are pretty well treated. Yes, they are being held against their will, but they are also enemies of this nation. Many have already been returned home, with more being released all the time.

We have also detained others within our own borders. Many not even citizens but legal aliens. It should be expected that after events such as 9/11 that "profiling" (something that is only bad because of PC run amok) would occur. Have there been mistakes? Yes... but I usually prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to my own government since we, in reality, know so little.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - Identification of enemies as a unifying cause? Who would have ever thought!!! Scapegoats is just a relative term that could easily be used as a political label. When does an enemy become a scapegoat though? We really are not the ones to determine such things... Only history will know the truth.

4. Supremacy of the Military - The US military is quite large, but this characteristic really does not apply to the US at all. It would apply to a country such as North Korea quite easily though.

Soldiers and military service have always been "glamorized" to some extent in the US... It should be expected that such things would, not necessarily increase, but be more noticed in times such as these.

5. Rampant Sexism - Not an issue that I am really aware. Especially with people saying that Hillary Clinton could easily run for the White House if she chose... Or even the following that Martha Stewart has.... However misplaced it may be.

6. Controlled Mass Media - I really do not know about this one. I think media is always influenced by its own government to some extent. But the US media is not outright controlled... So I really do not think any of us could make even an educated statement on this subject.

7. Obsession with National Security - The US definately is obsessed at the moment with national security... And with good reason. We're an "open" society that is extremely vulnerable to such "grass roots" attacks. So I'd say its a good thing that our government is obsessed with national security at this time.

Actually... I'd probably prefer a government obsessed with national security over one that is not... Wouldn't want to end up like France or anything.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Another characteristic that doesn't apply to the US. Problems do arise where people think religion is playing a role in legislative or judicial decisions, but that should be expected in one of the most heavily "Christianized" countries in the world. I mean, its not like Christianity has had an influence on the morals of a vast percentage of our population or anything....

It is good to know that the separation of church and state is an active policy with our nation though.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - Ehhh... I'm not going to even say much about this one. Its obvious corporations have an influence of our elected representatives. We're in a capitalist society... Corporations are the reason we're so successful as a nation.

Is all this bad? Perhaps... But not necessarily yet. There are problems that need to be fixed, but that can be said about almost anything. So we should focus on fixing those problems instead of creating new ones.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - This is actually something I found VERY wrong with much of the US today... But I would not go so far as to say that it is suppressed... There are many labor issues right now, and I have experienced some of them with my family (my father is employed by a major airline), but that's more the result of a weak union than anything else.

But there are many labor organizations that have quite a bit of influence... Some rivalling major corporations.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Not an issue in the US... And probably won't ever be in the near future. College is usually glamorized in the US... the arts are just left alone... But not usually attacked, except with video games in mind.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Once again define obsession. But if you go by the description... I guess the FBI would be described as the national police force, but I do not think that police abuses are often overlooked or that the FBI has "virtually unlimited power". Could they? Yes, definately... So could Scotland Yard though. But right now? No.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Watergate anyone? This could be applied to so many different governments... There's always coverups and a lack of accountability; but this is not an issue in the US. At least not in the fashion that the description is suggesting.

14. Fraudulent Elections - I don't even want to bring up the 2000 elections. Both sides were petty with everything; but I do not believe the elections were fraudulent. Would anyone actually happen to have an UNBIASED account of the 2000 elections? I'd actually love to brush up on the events as I am a bit vague on many of the details.

All in all though... I do not believe these characteristics could really be applied to the US with the direction that each of them take. Many of the can be applied to the US, that's for sure, but they are quite broad to begin with.

The US is most definately not a fascist nation... On top of that, its not even heading in that direction. Our society may not be the best, and it definately has its share of problems, but I personally do not believe there are any that are better.

[Obscure]

Please.

Some of you really need to read a good history book. Or more like several of them. We're nothing like Germany in the 20s and 30s of the last century. We're not even close. The closest comparison you could make is that we're much more like we were during World War II. But even that comparison is weak.

[agent_ze]

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights


*cough* death sentence *cough*

[Moniker]

Sorry, I kind of went blind after seeing othell's large reply to such a small post...can someone sum it up for me?

[stas]

Originally posted by agent_ze
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights


*cough* death sentence *cough*

*cough* thats the disdain for those who ignore human rights *cough*. the US does recognize human rights, otherwise they wouldnt be treated as well as they are while theyre in prison.

[brett]

Actually... I'd probably prefer a government obsessed with national security over one that is not... Wouldn't want to end up like France or anything.

Othell, why exactly is ending up like France a bad thing? Or, more to the point, why is not having a government obsessed with national security a bad thing? Canada, no doubt, is overseeing our borders with a more watchful eye, certainly, but are we obsessed? Hardly..

[othell]

Originally posted by agent_ze
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights


*cough* death sentence *cough*

See... I disagree with that. I have no problem with capital punishment.

Most of America has no problem with capital punishment either. Where we do have a problem is the implementation of it.

-------------------------------------

Brett,

I get my jabs in at the French as often as I can. The US would have to get bitch slapped through a couple world wars to end up like France though... So yeah, it'd be a bad thing.

Obsession with something is quite relative. I could say the US is obsessed with national security now compared to 5 years ago. Times of war do that.

And I never said not having a government that was obsessed with national security was a bad thing, I just said I'd prefer one that was.

Whoever said anything about Canada being obsessed?

---------------------------------------------

Derivative,

We're not even heading in that direction.

[Cyberdemon]

I agree with most of it, but it reminds me of listening to people like Miss Cleo - saying things in such vague terms that they could realistically be applied to anybody. Our government has certain traits in common with fascist governments in the past (all governments do), sure, but the important thing is that we don't nearly carry them out to the degree that they did.

We could do without all the "I'm more American than you" or "if you don't like it then get the fuck out" attitudes floating around, but it could be worse.

[agent_ze]

Originally posted by stas
*cough* thats the disdain for those who ignore human rights *cough*. the US does recognize human rights, otherwise they wouldnt be treated as well as they are while theyre in prison.

Allowing people to eat a bucket of fried chicken before you send them to death is truly a demonstration of holyness.

[othell]

Originally posted by agent_ze
Allowing people to eat a bucket of fried chicken before you send them to death is truly a demonstration of holyness.

We dont send them to their death. They do that themselves.

[stas]

Originally posted by agent_ze
Allowing people to eat a bucket of fried chicken before you send them to death is truly a demonstration of holyness.

youre right, theres also nothing to be said for cable tv, libraries, workout areas, basketball courts etc, all the luxuries of a nice apartment complex, the only difference being bars on the windows. its not humane to give those animals what some law abiding citizens cant afford or have provided by the government. keep preaching brother.

[Cyberdemon]

Originally posted by othell
We dont send them to their death. They do that themselves.

If that were true, we wouldn't need prisons or guards. We'd just send them a quick email telling them to drive to the death chamber at a certain time, strap themselves in, and push the button.

:rolleyes:

[pantera]

yes, othell, in an alternate universe where 'we' actually means 'they' and vice versa. give me a break.

natural rights are not forfeited upon the commission of a crime. besides that point, it also should be noted that criminals are dealt with terribly.

[stas]

Originally posted by pantera
natural rights are not forfeited upon the commission of a crime. besides that point, it also should be noted that criminals are dealt with terribly.

maybe not for you, but when someone murders another person i sure think they do.

[pantera]

using what logic? how do *NATURAL* rights disappear? if we've been so arrogant as a species to come up with a system we call 'natural rights' to protect one another, we cannot simply 'take away' someone's rights once they do something bad. i didn't see that stipulation anywhere in the natural rights handbook.

well, we *can*, and we *do* take them away, but all that shows is that we, as a species, are so over-protective and idiotic that in order to enforce our laws we have to break them.

[othell]

Originally posted by pantera
using what logic? how do *NATURAL* rights disappear? if we've been so arrogant as a species to come up with a system we call 'natural rights' to protect one another, we cannot simply 'take away' someone's rights once they do something bad. i didn't see that stipulation anywhere in the natural rights handbook.

well, we *can*, and we *do* take them away, but all that shows is that we, as a species, are so over-protective and idiotic that in order to enforce our laws we have to break them.

You're not making any sense. What is this natural rights you speak of? Who decided this? No one has given anyone natural rights. We do come up with laws to govern ourselves with, and within those laws is the ability to execute a convicted murderer.

Now personally, I do believe that every individual has certain inalienable rights, but I also believe that certain acts by individuals can lead to forfeiture of those rights ( e.g. murder ). But that's a belief and you'll be unable to prove that such a belief is wrong.

----------------------------------------------

Derivative,

I think you need to re-read everything once more. Obsession of national security does not make a nation facist. It depends on how that obsession is executed. The US is not obsessed with national security in the manner that the article refers to.

[PurpleHaze]

Those statements are true of almost any Nation to some degree or another. The key word being degree :rolleyes:

[Obscure]

Protecting its citizens from direct attack by an enemy is the government's primary responsibility. If an attack by an enemy suceeds then the government has failed to meet their responsibility in that particular incident. Not that we should expect perfection from any government (especially one run by human beings) but we would still expect our government to not let it happen again if they can help it. Hence our "obsession" with national security. Call it whatever you like, but no one is interested in having another large scale terrorist attack like what occurred on September 11. Not the people nor the government. The government of course is going to do everything in it's power to make sure that it doesn't happen again.

With the rise of international terrorism and the increased proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and their delivery systems, we really have no choice but to be more security concious because the enemy we now face does not care if they live or die. The Cold War doctrine of mutually assured destruction does not apply to organizations like al Queda because they assure their members in the recruitment phase that if they perish on a mission they will be rewarded in the afterlife.

Consider 9/11 a wake up call. As terrible as that day was for America, it could have been a lot worse than it was. The consequences of the next attack could be measured in hundreds of thousands of lives instead of mere thousands. The enormous complexity in dealing with this threat cannot be easily overstated. Realizing this, our government has chosen to deal with this threat decisively and quickly. Some believe that we're overreacting but imagine what our enemies would think if we had dealt with the aftermath of 9/11 like we had to previous terrorist attacks. History shows us that a weak response guarantees stronger attacks.

Osama bin Laden believed us to be a paper tiger, but I would be willing to bet that he no longer believes that. He's hiding deep in some cave right now because he fears we'll find him and kill him. The master terrorist is now fleeing in terror. I believe we should keep these terrorists running and hiding. They cannot plot their deadly attacks on us if they're running for their lives. Force is the only thing they understand and respect.

[BluRRPy]

I wasn't being sarcastic jeez people. God bless the Nation.

Originally posted by Obscure
Consider 9/11 a wake up call. As terrible as that day was for America, it could have been a lot worse than it was. The consequences of the next attack could be measured in hundreds of thousands of lives instead of mere thousands. The enormous complexity in dealing with this threat cannot be easily overstated. Realizing this, our government has chosen to deal with this threat decisively and quickly. Some believe that we're overreacting but imagine what our enemies would think if we had dealt with the aftermath of 9/11 like we had to previous terrorist attacks. History shows us that a weak response guarantees stronger attacks.

See obscure knows what he is talking about. What if we didn't retaliate for 9/11? How soon would Iraq have had the capabilities to deliver all those weapons of mass destruction they used to defend themselves across the Atlantic? Imagine the chemical weapons they used there being used right here in our own country? 9/11 ^ 2 !!!

Realizing this, our government has chosen to deal with this threat decisively and quickly.
That is key! What would our world look like if the threat of terrorism remained unchecked? Imagine how easily fundamentalism would continue to take root in Iraq and Afghanistan had they remained in chaos as they were before we liberated them and restored peace and tranquility. Now that the conditions that breed terrorism are no where to be found in Iraq and Afghanistan, the world is a safer place.

[Cain]

1.. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism – Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

WRONG!

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030725/capt.1059092783.bush_cdh111.jpg

Yes, that's you know who defacing the flag.

Question: President Bush, why do you hate America?

[agent_ze]

Originally posted by stas
youre right, theres also nothing to be said for cable tv, libraries, workout areas, basketball courts etc, all the luxuries of a nice apartment complex, the only difference being bars on the windows. its not humane to give those animals what some law abiding citizens cant afford or have provided by the government. keep preaching brother.


Oh so that must be why poor minorities commit murder, to have acess to all those luxuries. Fuck paying bills, being imprisoned is the good life. Thank you for bringing wisdom into my life.

[stas]

Originally posted by agent_ze
Oh so that must be why poor minorities commit murder, to have acess to all those luxuries. Fuck paying bills, being imprisoned is the good life. Thank you for bringing wisdom into my life.

umm...ok? do you have a point that pertains to your original argument (or my response) or are you moving on to contemporary american social problems? i have no clue how this deals with humane treatment anymore.

[othell]

Originally posted by Derivative
I didn't say it did, but rather that we are more "fascist" now (using the defintion of fascism given by the article) than we were pre 9/11.

And I'm saying that the article is too broad and that for the most part the US really does not embody any of those categories the way they are presented...

[SithDrummer]

I'd read it with a little more open mind had it been written before the Bush administration took office - it seems painstakingly crafted to point a finger in that direction.

[saut]

Facists are a bunch of fags.

[Obscure]

Wait a minute here. The author might be on to something. I just realized that all those things are also true of a communist government. Is Bush a communist as well as a fascist? Where is he leading this country?

/me ends sarcasm

[BluRRPy]

Originally posted by Obscure
Wait a minute here. The author might be on to something. I just realized that all those things are also true of a communist government. Is Bush a communist as well as a fascist? Where is he leading this country?

/me ends sarcasm
8.. Religion and Government are Intertwined – Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions.

9.. Corporate Power is Protected – The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders in power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

Yup that's communism...

[Obscure]

The only difference is that in communism you replace God with the State and government owns all the businesses. The Party aristocracy appoints the government's leaders. That's not really all that different from fascism is it? They amount to basically the same thing: a repressive totalitarian form of government with no input from the people. We're far, far from that in America.

[BluRRPy]

Originally posted by Obscure
The only difference is that in communism you replace God with the State and government owns all the businesses.
That's easily one of the funniest things ever said on The Catacombs.

[Obscure]

The only funny thing about it is your inability to understand it.

http://countrystudies.us/russia/9.htm
http://countrystudies.us/russia/10.htm

http://countrystudies.us/china/24.htm
http://countrystudies.us/china/25.htm
http://countrystudies.us/china/26.htm
http://countrystudies.us/china/27.htm
http://countrystudies.us/china/28.htm
http://countrystudies.us/china/29.htm
http://countrystudies.us/china/30.htm

http://countrystudies.us/north-korea/13.htm

Read those and tell me if you see any similarities between what facists do and what communists do.

[transient]

funny thing, i'm writing a research paper RIGHT NOW about how communism and fascism are very similar in practice. weird.

as for our fascist government, i can walk around washington with a sign that says "down with the fascist government" without being thrown into prison. basically, i can do almost anything i want without the government intervening.

[FireWall]

Those of you discussing communism, as if you actually know what you're talking about, are thoroughly incorrect and ignorant. Furthermore, no parallels can be made between fascism and communism, and Russia, China, and North Korea are not communist.

[Grinch]

Thank you, Firewall. Neither is Cuba. The closest thing the world ever had to communism was Lenin's short term. In my opinion, had Trotsky succeeded him instead of that manipulative butcher Stalin, the Soviet Union would be THE world power today, and a large majority of the world would be converted to world socialism.

[FireWall]

Wow, I'm thoroughly surprised. I never expected to encounter a point of view even remotely similar to mine, but the Grinch certainly has the right idea.