Old Style bhop

[precise]

Please include uncapped bhop, the good stuff, everyone will come back.

[filmz`]

They will probably make a hook, the game doesnt need bhop back.

[ricky]

(I'm back)

[Thrash]

If possible make a server-side command that allows full bhop or capped. The advantages of that are numerous.

[caedere]

If possible make a server-side command that allows full bhop or capped. The advantages of that are numerous.

Agreed

[NightWolf]

just uncap it period

[Janus]

no, I don't want to see hws running and jumping across the middle of openfire, even if I was one of them at the time. I like the cap, just make it so we don't go back down to 100% if you go past it.

[sgx_d]

I'm less concerned with who will want to come back and rather with who will come to the mod. Uncapping the bhop will present a rather... extreme advantage to the more experienced players and a complete kick in the balls to newer and 1st time players.

You know it will mean you getting called hacker and him called noob and getting bitched at till he leaves the server. If we have no more noobs then we have no new players. That is a bad thing.

[Thrash]

....sorry but I fail to see the fact that experienced players are far better than non-experienced as a negative.... Oh, whats this? You've played for 4 years, you can bhop? Oh I've played for a week, I can't? You're destroying me?

Sorry it's the same universally with games, the skills are just different.

[Janus]

....sorry but I fail to see the fact that experienced players are far better than non-experienced as a negative.... Oh, whats this? You've played for 4 years, you can bhop? Oh I've played for a week, I can't? You're destroying me?

Sorry it's the same universally with games, the skills are just different.
there is a difference between moving slightly faster (almost double speed) and exponentially faster than any of the other players in a server.

I'm with sgx on this one.

[bok]

....sorry but I fail to see the fact that experienced players are far better than non-experienced as a negative.... Oh, whats this? You've played for 4 years, you can bhop? Oh I've played for a week, I can't? You're destroying me?

Sorry it's the same universally with games, the skills are just different.

Difficult concept to grasp I know but if the person is new to the game there is a chance they won't know what bhop is. They'll see a heavyweapons guy flying across the screen and think he's cheating simply because the heavyweapons guy is normally slow. There is a rather steep learning curve in tfc, uncapped bhop will just keep more people from wanting to learn.

[Thrash]

Difficult concept to grasp I knowIt's not.

I understand the view of uncapped bhop being seen as a cheat, which is why I strongly advocate having the serverside command toggle, if possible. But it doesn't change the fact that a lot of things in video games are called cheating by new players. It's unavoidable. I've been called a cheater for priming grenades, charging a sniper rifle, and conc jumping. We aren't considering changes for those, because they are fundamental parts of the game. At this point, I don't think bhop should be viewed any different. This isn't any different in my mind. I can name examples in other games, Unreal Tournament and Quake definitely comes to mind.

[bayz]

I think it'd be cool to have some kind of server cvar that sets the % bhop. Like default would be sv_bhop 170 (170% of original speed -- what bhop is now, I think?), then for those crazy public server admins, they can go between 100-170, depending on what they want. Then sv_bhop 0 for uncapped or something. I dunno, shrug.

[Milosenpotion]

Thrash, you don't seem to understand the point people are trying to make; there's a VERY big difference between being able to increase your speed to a certain point and being able to have an unlimited speed, and each's effect on the gap between casual and hardcore players for a game.

[nam]

its simple if you bring bhop back, lock special and dont let anybody script it. Only top players could bhop back in the day because there was no special script.

[beast]

bhopping without special is extremely easy with a jump;wait script. in fact thats what most use anyway that i've found. and no i don't use special. ever play on a server with the etaa plugin? thats funny when someone is kicked for using special. i'm just saying that not only top players could bhop without special.

[MrSparkle]

bhopping without special is extremely easy with a jump;wait script. in fact thats what most use anyway that i've found. and no i don't use special. ever play on a server with the etaa plugin? thats funny when someone is kicked for using special. i'm just saying that not only top players could bhop without special.
ETAA does not block _special, that would be ETAB and it is funny as hell to see people get kicked for useing that exploit. One of the main problems today is how many players use exploits and other means of gaining an unfair advantage over other players. Yes, those same advantages are available to all people but some of us have honor.

HONOR:
A state of being or state of character, that people possess by living up to the complex set of all the values that make up the public moral code. Honor includes: integrity, courage, loyalty, respect, selfless-service, and duty. Honor demands adherence to a public moral code, not protection of a reputation.
This is the main thing TFC lacks today. Have pride in your skills, don't download them. TFC has been ignored for far to long by valve. I'm sure if they cared for this game alot of exploits used today would be locked.

Lock _special
Lock ax1.wav
Lock explosions

Demand more of yourselves. Demand more of your clanmates. Play the game with honor.

[colin]

i'm sure people never used mousewheel to bhop either eh nam?

edit - i suck at the typing :(

[sgx_d]

preventing the next post from being a flame on sparkle. few do as they should. I at least do what's right.

[[TDA]Jiggles]

Allowing uncapped bhop, I think, is a bad idea. It is so counter-intuitive to new players that it can't really be compared to other movement skills. Conc/Rocket jumping is odd, but isn't a tough concept - you get pushed by explosions, so use them to push you where you want to go.

There is a major reason why bhopping wasn't widely known about for 2 years or so after TFC came out: people had to, more or less, "stumble" on it. Of course, bits and pieces of it were learned much sooner - gliding, skimming, etc. However, it took that long for people to put it together.

The first time a newbie, playing as a scout, sees an HW blow past them, will be the last time they play the game.

There's nothing wrong w/ the current limited form of bhopping - class speed is still maintained (it's just higher w/ bhop), and the initial "shock" value is much less. Though I do hate the "speed barrier" that throws you back to 100% speed - id rather it just keep you at the max bhopping speed.

A server side variable to control bhopping may be a solution, but I don't like it. That would mean I would need to check the damn cvar on every server I join to see whether or not I can bhop (and how fast). This is annoying to me, and extremely discouraging to new players.

Uncapped bhopping IS fun, so I would suggest putting the variable under the "sv_cheats" section. At least turn it off by default.

[Direhit]

Make all classes faster, this will make the game pace quicker while leaving out the need for uncapped bhop. Current day movements are more the enough if they were just sped up a bit.

[MitsuMan]

I'd rather not have it in there at all. But if it was, like Thrash mentioned I think if you could make it a server variable with it off by default that would be good. :D

[sgx_d]

or we could just leave it as is. server side hooks make uncapped...

[NightWolf]

just uncap it ffs i love uncapped servers and bhopping off nades and concs its fun as hell

[public_slots_free.mL]

uncapped is a bit rediculous. Maybe better implementation of the cap but uncapped is too much.

[Famine-]

Uncapping the bhop will present a rather... extreme advantage to the more experienced players and a complete kick in the balls to newer and 1st time players.

How do you gain experience? Losing, getting beat and adjusting your thinking.
How did you get decent? You plugged it in, got your asswhooped and then came back and tried again.

This is the thinking that trashed TFC in the first place. Dumbing down the skill required to be competitive. Maybe the defenses Eli Manning(NFL noob, rookie, same as a TFC noob) faces should drop and extra defender to the gatorade stand. It was part of the game before those who couldnt do it complained enough to get it removed. You either step up or step off. Thats just a fact of life period that extends beyond here. You cant make exceptions for the few at the expense of the many. Hence the number of people playing today.

[MeestarK]

Famine, you're forgetting that when it was part of the game, very few could do it. When it began to spread, Valve capped it because it really unbalanced the game and caused new players to quit because they had no idea why everyone was moving so quickly.

[beavis]

Famine you also say that part of the game is learning but you forget that the tfc players of today that will play fortress have about 4 years experience. It's like a little league team playing the Yankees and saying, "What? It's good experience for them."

[Change]

First off i think that FF should have a capped bhop. There are a few reasons for this, the first being that the learning curve for the game is very steep in all aspects already; new players will not be able to compeet with people who have been playing this game for years already. Secondly, capped bhop requires more control and skill from the existing players than uncapped bhop. The advantages of moving either 160 or 175 are next to nothing. It would be nice to keep this element of skill in the game. I'd also like to see FF lock _special type scripts that eleminate some skill, and jump;wait spam scripts that help time the jumps. Everyone should be on a level playing feild straight off the bat. People just need to learn to hop with the spacebar, or mouse2, or any other key (spacebar=slowest key).

[bayz]

Jiggles']
A server side variable to control bhopping may be a solution, but I don't like it. That would mean I would need to check the damn cvar on every server I join to see whether or not I can bhop (and how fast). This is annoying to me, and extremely discouraging to new players.

Yeah that's a good point. Maybe instead of setting the exact percent, it could have values of 0, 1, and 2, with no bhop (100% original speed), default bhop (170%), and uncapped bhop, respectively. But yeah, I can see it getting annoying to have every server have a different bhop setting.

[NightWolf]

tfc is a defense sided game for the most part i think that if you uncapped the bhop it would give the offense more of an edge and even playing field a little more and it would also force the d to learn how to hit faster moving targets

[Thrash]

Thrash, you don't seem to understand the point people are trying to make; there's a VERY big difference between being able to increase your speed to a certain point and being able to have an unlimited speed, and each's effect on the gap between casual and hardcore players for a game.
Please stop assuming I'm not understanding, I completely understand, and I also don't agree.

Edit: Don't agree that it's something that should be limited because new players wouldn't understand.

[sev]

screw bhop, stick to the strafe jumping in hl2. a more QWTF feel for jumping would be leet because while there was no cap for strafe speed, it was much harder to achieve the great speeds (no handheld nade to send you to 200% instantly).

I'm pretty sure that if you could not do any handheld nades, uncapped movement skills would not pose a problem.

So are you suggesting that hand held concs be removed or what

[Milosenpotion]

Didn't seem you understood the effects of each, especially since you used games with capped speed as a backing for your argument.

[Janus]

the defense will also be moving at the speed NW. Best bet right now is to have it as an option/cvar for uncapped bhop.

I don't see anything wrong with scriping the +jump;wait scripts but _special should be removed for being able to be scripted.

[GhOsT]

I disagree with the "hey, lets just make it a server side cvar" metality. If i wanna go pub someplace, I just wanna find a server with the lowest ping on a map i want to play. If there are a bunch of server side cvars the experience on differen't pubs could potentially be different. Then you get some servers with the cvar on and some with the cvar off. This all means that now i gotta go through and sort out the bhop servers if i don't want to play with lightning fast hwguys. Having servers that have the potential to give radically different gameplay on different servers will most likely turn off new players and jow pubber, limiting the number of people playing the game.

[equ1n0x]

Untill another alternative is brought to the table, i dont think removing HH'ing would do anything but slow the game down more. After all, compared to any of the quake arenas or unreal tourny, tfc is pretty slow.

[Janus]

I disagree with the "hey, lets just make it a server side cvar" metality. If i wanna go pub someplace, I just wanna find a server with the lowest ping on a map i want to play. If there are a bunch of server side cvars the experience on differen't pubs could potentially be different. Then you get some servers with the cvar on and some with the cvar off. This all means that now i gotta go through and sort out the bhop servers if i don't want to play with lightning fast hwguys. Having servers that have the potential to give radically different gameplay on different servers will most likely turn off new players and jow pubber, limiting the number of people playing the game.
but as with how most servers list their settings (especially special ones like that) would be like:

Drippy's 2fort BHOP

or something like that as they have done with the other uncapped ones.

[MikeQuist[x7]]

Old style bhop is insane. We want new players. If anything the cap needs to be brought down, and at the least stay the same. Sure, the experts in here will ask for it, but the number of people who dont know it far outnumbers those who do.
A raised or uncapped limit could potentially end an income of new clients and would severly hurt the game. Now stop being selfish about your bhop and make the game a lil less lame

[FragCore]

I personally think only the scout class should have the most extreme limits of movement (that is what he designed for, after all).

that would be cool to give scouts the wall-jumping ability (like in MegaMan X) but limit the number of jumps to like 1 or 2.

[sev]

Ok, yeah we'll remove HH concs. While we're at we will also remove all the different classes because you don't need those as long as you're working as a team. It gets boring when you get shot down by a hw so we'll remove all that crap.

Seriously, you people suggesting stuff like "give them grav guns so they can make obstacles out of barrells and crates" and "tfc is just run to flag - get killed - repeat, make it so that you have to sneak around and be creative!!!"... that wouldn't be tfc, that would be some random ass game where you spend half the time moving shit around, and the other half running across the map because you have no concs to get you there. It wouldn't be fast paced at all, it wouldn't even resemble tfc.

[TkMasTaH]

what about making it capped, but when you hit that magical 170% wall, it doesnt slow you way the hell down

[voidobot]

just have some sort of training videos that teach the new players how to strafe and use diff mouse movements to aquire speed by bhopping and show a player doing it so they know its part of the game and not a cheat

[voidobot]

same with concing rjing ect.

[schtoofa]

easy kev :p

Your comments do get read - no doubt about it. I think some things will go "officially" unanswered for a while because the outcome is either unknown or undecided, or it's just being kept private until a later date. Nothing wrong with a little sarcasm! Nothing wrong with simple discussion, though. Some stuff is just fun to investigate / talk about.

[sev]

I wasn't directing my whole post towards you. I was referring to most of the suggestions people have been making since the project has been announced. People want to keep the original TFC, yet they want to add some of the things I personally find ridiculous. It just doesn't work, you either have one or the other. None of my posts reflect the opinion of the entire team.

[Rimuladas]

I dont think we need to uncap the bhop. The game is just fine without 10 sec hw caps on flagrun. I have no problem with the idea of making it a server side setting however, and we can debate this later with the leagues.

[Janus]

Ok, yeah we'll remove HH concs. While we're at we will also remove all the different classes because you don't need those as long as you're working as a team. It gets boring when you get shot down by a hw so we'll remove all that crap.

Seriously, you people suggesting stuff like "give them grav guns so they can make obstacles out of barrells and crates" and "tfc is just run to flag - get killed - repeat, make it so that you have to sneak around and be creative!!!"... that wouldn't be tfc, that would be some random ass game where you spend half the time moving shit around, and the other half running across the map because you have no concs to get you there. It wouldn't be fast paced at all, it wouldn't even resemble tfc.
when you stated that, are you referring to my suggestion of being able to possibly move a lvl 1 sg as an engi with a "Gravity Gun" for instance? Or more of the moving crates/barrels to block areas (like I previously "put down" because, as you said, it would just not be tfc).

[sev]

I'm not referring to anyone in particular, I'm just saying you guys need to reconsider some of your suggestions if you plan to keep the concept of TFC basically the same, that is all.

[sgx_d]

only real changes I would like to see besides fixing some of the games problems and better graphics. Would be to include moveable objects like they did in CS. Personally I would like to see the ability to actually grab the items like you could in HL2. Would be useful to get that stray pipe away from an SG. Quick save on spammy demos. unprimed grens can be disposed of around the corner. A barrel could be placed in a tight hall to take away a perfect concing place.

On the other side of it you could end up concing the barrel into a defender. conc a rocket away from you and completely change it's trajectory. scatter pipe traps.

some people really don't like the idea of "junk" in the way. Barrels and other objects. However I do feel they can make an interesting change to the way the game plays.

If someone wants a map without objects in it. Make it that way. If you want em. Put em in there. I just recommend they be implemented into regular maps. If they come standard with the 1st released maps we could see just how much of a difference they make.

CS:S has proven they can be an interesting change for anyone that has played it. Rarely but it has happened a barrel was flung by an exp. and killed some unlucky fool. IT's fun stuff like that that always gets a laugh and makes it fun.

[ReEn]

uncapped bhop would be an issue even if hh's were removed because the classes that benefitted the most from uncapped bhop were the heavy classes

[sgx_d]

ahh the days i go scouting around and HW's streak past me like a lil boy being chased by Michel Jackson.

[Sufjan]

"The first time a newbie, playing as a scout, sees an HW blow past them, will be the last time they play the game. "

Bull-freaking crap. You have no clue what you are talking about. One of the main reasons I started playing this game was because I loved the fact you could bhop. I had no idea how, and the fact I had to learn something like that was something I wanted to get into.

[Janus]

you are a rare breed. many people would feel like the game has too much of a learning curve to be able to do something like that, so they would probably give up on it.

[MrSparkle]

It's one thing to know about it and not be able to do it. It's an entirely different thing to not know about it and think people cheat. All comes down to information. I didn't even try to bhop untill years into playing TFC. Took me a little while to learn. It is a very fun part of the game. I have tried other games and the movement feels wrong. Even in hl2, the movement feels wrong. Like I'm not in full control. Bhop is freedom of movement and a skill that needs to be learned and mastered. I think a server cvar is the best way to go.

There should be 3 settings:
Default, 170% cap without loss of speed when cap is hit.
no-bhop, 140% cap. I have played on servers that use sparkys serverside that have had it locked at 100% and it feels odd when you even just jump forward. 140% is the top speed you can reach with strafe jumping.
un-capped: weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

I think Server owners running a pub should have setting in server name if not useing default setting. I think this will make most players and server owners happy as they can get the type of players they are looking to have play there. Seems pretty simple to me.

[Nuggs|*1]

do none of you remember the first times playing TFC? I remember I was a nub for a good 6 months. I still remember the first time I saw a conc jump, a medic did it with his med pack out so i spent 10 minutes trying to conc jump with my med pack. When i got conced i would turn off my moniter for a few seconds (cause when I did it fixed the problem!). The reason why I loved TFC so much was because it was like nothing i had ever seen before. I learned something new every day for like 3 years. I never learned to bhop until about 2 years ago, and at no point did it make me hate TFC instead it just intrigued me more. Uncapped bhop is a good thing

[Wheaties[TCK]]

Old style bhop is fun, i admit. Going into a server doing an hh straight into the ground and start jumping and going real fast is quite fun. However, it's ridiculous for match play. The capped bhop is a better solution for an even game for Offense and defense. To whoever said "well the defense can move that fast too!", yes that is true, but the defense's goal isn't to be quick like that, it's to stop the opposing offense. Hell I didn't learn to reallybhop for awhile, cause I was defense, not "that" much need for speed. Now on offense, it would be a great asset, getting places 100x before everyone else.

The game is relatively balanced as it is right now. The reaons people are getting dull is cause of the lack of player pool, teams, new comers, and general enthusiasm of the game. The competition is relatively a lot lower than it used to be. People get bored of the same ol people. Also I think there aren't enough GOOD maps around. THere are quite a few, but there are at max maybe 15 really good ones. And they're all played out now. Especially from 4v4's that have become a big thing as of late.

I don't think much should be changed from TFC to FF. Except getting rid of the bug fixes on nail exploits, possibly locking _special. I don't see why anything shoudl be dramatically changed. I like TFC, I think it's the best, most complex, most exciting online game around I've played to date, I don't want to see it get ruined.

[sgx_d]

i think we should chagne it back to when tfc just came out when soldiers had more rockets, demos had more mirvs, bhoping,conc skipping and all that was around if u dont have the skill who cares

Giving 1st timers a more level playing ground is > you having your bhop spree on every server. Even if the mod team does not make uncapped bhop in the game or a setting for the game. There will be hooks to allow it. Just like now. Just look for BHOP servers.

[[TDA]Jiggles]

Bull-freaking crap. You have no clue what you are talking about.

No.

[Thrash]

sv_bhop full
sv_bhop capped
sv_bhop none

[One Winged Angel]

You can't 1v1 warpath very well with uncapped bhop. Therefore I am against all forms of uncapped bhopping.

[realy]

There is no bigger fan of uncapped bhop than me but I still think it should be capped by default with a server variable to uncap it. I spent at least half of my time playing TFC in V. bhop hooked and the first thing you notice is that the bhoppers determine who wins the game. For some reason that server was popular with noobs but there was always about 4 bhoppers who determined the entire game. If one team had even one more bhopper than the other, that team always won. Uncapped bhop is way too big an advantage just for knowing about a skill that is not very hard to learn.

It is a bad arguement to say that becaue you have that much more experience you should be given that much more of an advantange with uncapped bhop because capped bhop is just as hard, if not harder(staying below cap is hard), to learn than uncapped bhop.

Uncapped bhop also screws up class balance a lot which is the biggest issue for me. I don't want to see soldier become the main o class.

Don't make us make our own bhop hook when a variable would be so much easier and less buggy.

Also I'd just like to point out that _special is exclusively a TFC exploit and probally wouldn't exist in a port to HL2 unless the mod team put it there.

[slizut-]

i sure as hell won't play if there is capped bhop.

[Negatiiv]

I think uncapped bhop is a bad idea. Don't get me wrong, I can bhop very very well and did so quite early on, but to new players it just seemed so unnatural, and especially with so many accusations of speed-hacking and the like. New players and long-term appeal imo will be one of the most important assets the mod can have. It needs to be balanced to keep some of the extra speed for the lighter classes (not like how valve tried to balanace it with the speed cap). I would suggest certain light classes get an adrenaline boost ability or something similar that is easy to use but exclusive to those classes. I'm thinking maybe increased speed by 50% for 10 seconds or so, with the ability being able to be used every 45 seconds. For example- if we used the same archetypal classes as we have in TFC, I would give it to the scout and the spy.

[L0ki]

only post i will make on the whole idea of the gravity gun in the mod:

NO


the above is my personal opinion and might not be the view of the rest of the mod team

[Defrag]

It is the opinion of everyone on the team, too :p. Can we also stop with the "uncap bhop" and "let people choose what bhop settings they want" posts, please? All of the above are not going into the mod, period. It has been repeatedly stated. Maybe time for a sticky announcement :)

To summarise:
A: Grav gun is for HL2, not TFC.
B: We will not be returning to uncapped bhop. It's a non-starter because it is neither balanced nor the best solution. We have a good solution that will most likely please the vast majority of TFCers and just need to test it.
C: No bhop variables on servers will be provided. I'l reiterate why: Some people like uncapped bhop, some people like no bhop whatsoever. People start bhop leagues and non-bhop leagues. The community divides. We can't afford that to happen, nor can we allow new players to get confused by people using different standards of TF on their own server.