Motherboards

[Direhit]

This section is devoted to motherboards for both Intel and AMD. If you have a Cyrix / IDT Centaur processor, you're out of luck.

[Direhit]

From WarmCarl:

Q: I set a bios password and I forgot it!!! How do I find it or get rid of it?

A: Open up your case and on your motherboard you should see a watch battery. Pull this out and leave it out for about an hour (it should be less but just to be safe) then put it back in and it should have reset it.

Otherwise, look in your motherboard manual, for a jumper setting that allows you to reset the BIOS.

[Direhit]

Q: I have a motherboard that uses a VIA (insert chipset name here) chipset, under (insert operating system here). The system is unstable, and performs poorly. What is wrong?

A: Whenver a company produces a chipset that is newer than an operating system, the chances are, that the operating system in question will not have native drivers for the motherboard's chipset in question. Thus, you should install the drivers that are on the CD that came with your motherboard.

Once you have done this, things should become more stable.

Chipsets that were made before a particular operating system will generally be natively supported in that particular operating system.

You can download chipset drivers from your motherboard manufacturer's website, or if they don't have one that works, you can try the drivers from the chipset makers themselves:

http://www.viatech.com/en/index/index.jsp
http://www.acerlabs.com (currently crippled)
http://www.sis.com/support/driver/step1.htm

[Direhit]

Q: I am going to get a new motherboard / memory combination, but I don't know which one is going to be ideal for me.

A: Out of the three types of memory currently available (SDRAM, DDR SDRAM, RDRAM), SDRAM is going to be the slowest. Even though its latency is much lower than RDRAM, its bandwidth is too limited. RDRAM, conversely, is going to give the greatest bandwidth, but comes with a terrible latency penalty. DDR SDRAM is essentially the same as SDRAM, except better bandwidth.

Right now, if you have money to burn, and want the best performance under workstation applications (if you don't know what workstation applications are, you don't need it), RDRAM is going to be the best, as these applications are heavily dependent on sheer memory bandwidth. Typically, you would see anywhere from a 5-20% overall performance improvement over DDR SDRAM, and even more over standard SDRAM when it comes to workstation applications. However, for business applications and gaming, there really isn't much of a performance difference between DDR SDRAM and RDRAM.

So, for the vast majority of people, DDR SDRAM seems to be the best choice, as you get almost the same performance, at a fraction of the memory cost.

[Direhit]

Q: I want to get a new motherboard, but don't know what to get?

A: As for motherboards, there are several avenues to choose from. The chipsets are very important when making a choice, but first, and more importantly, the brand of motherboard can make a huge difference. Motherboard makers such as Asus and Supermicro produce the highest quality motherboards. Their motherboards use a 6-layer PCB construction, and are very solidly built. As expected, they are also the most expensive.

The next tier of motherboard makers produce good quality boards, in general. Companies such as Gigabyte, Tyan, Epox, and MSI, use a good quality 4-layer PCB construction in their motherboards. They cost significantly less than Asus or Supermicro. These companies generally do a good job of keeping the BIOS'es up to date on their web site.

The next tier of motherboard brands have boards that are generally satisfactory for ordinary users. Brands such as Asrock and Jetway, as well as Biostar will generally use satisfactory 4-layer PCB construction, although getting technical support might be a bit difficult.

The bargain basement motherboard makers generally are nothing more than shoddy motherboards made by PCChips, and are to be avoided. Unfortunately, in this day and age of computer retailing, many of the computer shops get into too many price wars, and try to cut corners, and often times, use these awful motherboards. The brands that I am familiar with include Alton, Amptron, Eurone, Matsonic, Houston Technologies, and Hsing Tech. These companies use poor quality 4-layer PCB in their motherboards, and you can easily identify them by how easily they break when you bend them in your hands.

These companies are terrible when it comes to releasing BIOS patches.

Often times, the ones selling these motherboards will just advertise them by the chipset, and not give a brand name.

Now... Onto the chipsets:

First, and most importantly, if you want to use the better AGP video cards, do NOT get a motherboard that has an integrated video chip, unless it comes with a separate AGP slot. Many people spend lots of money on a system that has an Intel Pentium 4 CPU, and expect top-notch performance, but are bitterly disappointed when they see the poor performance offered by the integrated S3 Savage chipsets, and are forced to go with a PCI-based video card. Not nice.

Other chipsets to avoid:

i840: SDRAM-based Intel chipset. Very limited, and crippled.

[Direhit]

Q: I have a motherboard based on one of the NVIDIA nForce or nForce2 chipsets. What are the advantages of using two memory modules over one?

A: Aside from the fact that more memory is generally better for your system, the nForce and nForce2 (SPP, IGP, 400 Ultra) chipsets have an additional feature, in that using two DIMM's will give you an increased amount of memory bandwidth, unlike with most other chipsets.

Thus, someone running with two 256 MB DIMM's will enjoy a bit more performance than someone running with a single 512 MB DIMM, thanks to the increased memory bandwidth.

[Direhit]

Q: Why won't my nForce2 motherboard work with my PC2700 memory when I use a 166 / 333 MHz bus speed? It worked fine with a VIA KT333a chipset.

A: nForce2 motherboards are actually fairly picky about what RAM they can use. Even perfectly good PC2700 DDR SDRAM can fail in an nForce2 board.

There was even a batch of Crucial PC2700 512 MB SDRAM DIMM's that ended up having some nasty issues with the nForce2 chipset, where the system would be unstable at 166 / 333, and that the owners of such a combination would have to either run their systems at 133 / 266, or increase the voltage of their RAM to compensate. The good news is, that only their 512 MB DIMM's were affected.

This bad batch or Crucial RAM can apparently be traced to those manufactured during December 2002 through what I am estimating to be around early February 2003.

At this time, my recommendations are, that if you are going to go with a nForce2 board, that you get your memory from one of the following types:

Crucial PC2700 and PC3200

Mushkin PC2700 "Blue" series or "Black" series.

If you are getting the Crucial PC2700 memory, if you have the 512 MB DDR PC2700 DIMM, make sure you are getting the memory with part number CT6464Z335.K16TK or 16T3.

If you are getting part number, CT6464Z335.16T, you will probably experience difficulties in getting it to work at 166 / 333 MHz FSB speeds.

If you bought the RAM with part number CT6464Z335.16T, you need to contact Crucial, or wherever you bought it from, and have them exchange it for part number CT6464Z335.K16TK or 16T3.

The part number will be listed on the sticker adhered to the memory module itself. When you call Crucial, make sure you let them know that you bought this memory using their configurator on their web site, and that at the time, it was listed as being compatible with the nForce2 motherboard you are using.

This problem seems to also be present in Kingston memory modules (both the ValueRam and the HyperX series) that use the HYNIX RAM.

[Direhit]

Q: I've installed my drivers for my nForce2 motherboard, but after I install the Windows XP service pack, my drivers are non-functional.

A: The correct order for installation is to:

1) Install Windows XP
2) Install the Service Pack
3) Install the NVIDIA drivers

You have to follow this order, otherwise many of your nForce2-specific drivers will not be correctly loaded.

[Direhit]

Q: If I want to run my nForce2-based motherboard in dual memory channel mode, do the DDR DIMM's have to be the same type?

A: No. The DIMM's can be of different size and even speed, although the rate limiting step here is the slowest memory module.

[Janus]

There seem to be so many different motherboards out there that run the nForce2 chipset, which one is the best one for me?

Took this from my own post a little while ago, and thought it would help some guys decide.

http://www.amdzone.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=1286

got link from www.ctrl-alt-del.com

look how close the boards all compare, and when deciding b/w the asus and epox, ask yourself if the extra $45 is worth it.

[Direhit]

Q: I want to build a reasonably modern computer, but I need an ISA slot. Are there any such boards that have one?

A: Today's motherboards have divested themselves of the ISA slots. The best you can generally find is the Biostar M7MIA board based on the AMD 761 chipset, which does come with an ISA slot.

Otherwise, you would have to drop back, and take a look at a VIA KT133 or AMD 751 chipset based board.

[Direhit]

Q: I have a chance to buy a motherboard that can accept either DDR SDRAM or standard PC100/133 SDRAM. I want to get this board because I don't want to get rid of my old SDRAM. Why don't you recommend these boards?

A: Such boards usually use the ALi MAGIK chipset, which is unstable, and performs very poorly. In addition to this, getting the latest drivers from Acerlabs has become quite a pain. Most people that I know of that bought ALi MAGIK chipset-based boards have ended up tossing them in the garbage.

There were a few boards based on VIA's older KT266-series chipset that also allowed one to use either SDRAM or DDR SDRAM, but like its ALi counterpart, it also suffered from poor stability, and similarly could not use both SDRAM and DDR at the same time.

[Direhit]

Q: What are the differences between the various NVIDIA nForce2 chipsets? I see several, and don't know which one to get.

A: This is a general breakdown of the chipsets:

nForce2 (SPP): The original nForce2 chipset, supports up to a 333 MHz FSB CPU, and allows for the use of PC3200 DDR SDRAM. Using two memory modules allows the board's memory controller to be run in 128 bit (dual channel) memory mode, instead of the standard 64 bit, resulting in some gains in performance.

These boards come with no integrated graphics processors.

nForce2 (IGP): Same as the nForce2 (SPP), but includes an integrated GeForce4 MX graphics processor. This integrated processor can be disabled, and such motherboards have a stand-alone AGP slot ready to accomodate an AGP graphics card.

nForce2 400: Same as the nForce2 (SPP), but with two key differences. First of all, it has the advantage of supporting the 400 MHz FSB CPU's, and secondly, has the disadvantage of not being able to run in dual memory channel mode.

nForce2 400 Ultra: Same as the nForce2 400 chipset, but can be run in dual memory channel mode if 2 or more DIMM's are used.

[Direhit]

Q: Can I use my old video card in my new motherboard?

A: That depends. Just about every new motherboard uses an 8X AGP slot that can only accomodate 1.5 volt video cards. Around the time of the Riva TNT2 / TNT2Ultra video cards, is when the manufacturers of such cards made them capable of running at 1.5 volts.

As a general rule of thumb, do not try to use a 2X AGP video card in a 1.5v-only motherboard.

[Direhit]

Q: I have a nForce2 motherboard, and just bought some Crucial 512 MB PC2700 memory from (insert vendor here) that ends in the dreaded "16T" suffix. Does this mean that I got screwed?

A: Most likely not, unless the RAM was so old, that it was still a remnant from earlier this year. Crucial has been refurbishing the "16T" series 512 MB DIMM's to correct for the voltage leaks, and instabilities, and has been letting their distributors sell it.

As always, test your memory using Memtest86 v3.0:

http://www.memtest86.com

If it passes this test, it doesn't matter what the label says.

[Direhit]

Q: I found a brand of motherboard called "Jetway." They seem to be cheaper than most other brands, and they have most chipsets available. Should I get one?

A: At this time, I would place Jetway's quality between that of the awful PC Chips boards and the quality second-tier motherboard manufacturers (Gigabyte, etc), being somewhat closer to the latter.

I do not recommend Jetway motherboards, since the price difference is not significant enough to take a gamble on the lesser quality.

[Direhit]

Q: I've noticed a relatively new motherboard brand, called "Asrock." Are these boards any good? Is it true that they are made by Asus?

A: Asrock is a subsidiary of Asus, catered towards the budget motherboard buyer.

http://www.asrock.com

Although they are a subsidiary of Asus, this does not necessarily translate into the quality one would normally expect from an Asus product.

If you are expecting great performance and stellar quality, you are going to be as disappointed as many a user who thought that just because Micron owned Spectek, that Spectek was supposed to be a good memory module company.

These boards use poorer quality components, and from what I have seen, do not use Asus' fine 6-layer PCB for their motherboards, instead, opting for a 4-layer PCB that is inferior to the 4-layer construction of motherboards costing only a few dollars more.

These boards also use obselete, cheaper, poorer performing chipsets. The best they have to offer, in terms of performance, is Intel's 845 series. You will not find their cheap boards using an Intel 865/875 chipset, or the nForce2 chipsets.

The biggest positive for these boards, other than their very low prices, is that they are a significant step above the truly awful PC Chips motherboards, and do not exhibit nearly as high of a RMA rate.

Given that good quality motherboards can be found for 10-20 dollars more than an Asrock, I do not recommend these boards for the people here, unless you are trying to build as cheap of a system as possible without regards for performance and stability.

[Direhit]

Q: I saw some eATX motherboards for sale at a low price. Should I get one? Will it work in my ATX case?

A: eATX stands for Embedded ATX. This board uses a standard ATX layout, but instead of having separate PCI slots, uses a PCI riser card to allow one, or at the most, two, separate PCI card slots. This construction allows someone to use a very slim case (similar to the old "Pizza Box" cases).

These boards would fit your standard ATX case, but you would not be able to access the PCI slots without sawing open the slot area in the back of your case. Furthermore, you would be limited in expansion. My advice is this:

Do not buy an eATX motherboard.

[Direhit]

Q: On my new power supply, there's an additional connector that has four prongs, arranged in a square-like manner. What is this used for?

A: That connector is an ATX +12V power connector, which supplies the CPU operation voltage. Most newer boards, both AMD and Intel, now have this connector on the board. If you don't have it plugged in, you can't boot.

If your power supply is lacking such a connector, and your motherboard needs such a connection, you can use an adapter to connect one of your standard power connectors that go into your hard drives, into the motherboard.

If you do not plug this in, your motherboard will not boot.

Note: Most of the older Athlon XP motherboards will not use this connection. However, it was recently seen with the newer nForce2 boards, that most newer AMD boards now have this connector on board. The Gigabyte GA-7N400 series motherboards, for example, all have this connector, whereas the older Epox EP-8RDA+ motherboards do not.

[Direhit]

Q: I have an old motherboard made by PCChips, and it is based on the VX Pro (or HX Pro or TX Pro). Unfortunatley, using any of the IDE devices other than the hard drive, causes the system to freeze. What can I do?

A: These boards, as well as other boards based on the same ripped-off chipset (VIA VP2, ALI Aladdin III / IV, and one other) will freeze if a non-hard drive is attached to the IDE port and if the port is being used in UDMA mode.

In general, what has worked for me in the past, was to just set the hard drive to use UDMA, and the other devices as PIO 4, from the BIOS. Windows will then detect things in their settings, and the freezing should stop.

[Direhit]

Q: I want to get one of the new AMD 64 bit CPU's, but don't know which motherboard to get. Which one should I look at?

A: There are three interfaces for AMD 64 bit CPU's.

Socket 754 is for the standard Socket 754 AMD Athlon64 and Socket 754 Sempron CPU's, and such combinations use only single channel memory mode, since the memory controller is built into the CPU itself. This is the new best bang / buck budget motherboard / CPU combination.

Socket 939 is for Socket 939 AMD Athlon64 CPU's. These CPU's have a dual channel memory controller built in.

Socket 940 is for the upper echelon of AMD's Athlon64 FX CPU's and the Opteron CPU's. This kind of board is very expensive, and is more for the server use.

If you are on a budget, then AMD's Athlon64 in combination with a Socket 754 motherboard is probably your best bet, as there are many nForce3-based Socket 754 motherboards made by my preferred brands, that start out under 75 dollars for the motherboard. With Athlon64 CPU's starting out in the low 100's, it can certainly be worth your while.

The best bang / buck for the higher end, though, is now in the form of a Socket 939 motherboard in combination with a Socket 939 Athlon 64 CPU. This combination allows you to use dual memory channel mode, and also has some very nice features, and will guard against future obselescence better.

[Direhit]

Q: Do the motherboards that take AMD Opteron and Athlon64 / FX chips require ECC memory?

A: Technically no, but read further:

AMD's specifications state that you must use registered memory modules. This invariably means that these are also ECC modules. When you shop for memory modules for an Opteron or Athlon64 FX, you'll be looking for registered, ECC modules.

While there are registered, non-ECC modules available, such memory modules are very rare, indeed, and not really any cheaper than their ECC counterparts. The bottom line is, that you must use registered memory modules for ideal operations.

If you have a REGULAR Athlon64 (non-FX), then your old PC3200, non-registered memory will work fine. Remember, though, Athlon64 systems operate in single channel memory mode only.

[Direhit]

Q: I just flashed my Gigabyte motherboard, and now my CPU temperature is reading 15-20 degrees higher! Is my CPU overheating?

A: Most likely not. Gigabyte claims that they are using a more "accurate" reading of the CPU temperature, but my heat sinks still feel the same temperature. The increase in the read temperature is to be expected. Simply set your shutdown temperature 20 degrees higher to compensate, if you're that worried.

[Direhit]

Q: If I want to use a socket 939 AMD Athlon 64 CPU, do I need to use registered / ECC memory modules?

A: No. You can use ordinary PC3200 unbuffered, unregistered, non-ECC memory modules in a Socket 939 motherboard. I would be careful about your memory choices, though, since inferior PC3200 memory may not be well-suited for such operations.

[Direhit]

Q: I want to get a Socket 939 motherboard so that I can use dual memory channel mode, but see that it's using the same chipset that the Socket 754 motherboards use. I thought you said that Socket 939 motherboards are all dual memory channel enabled?

A: The memory controller is not part of the Athlon 64 motherboard. The memory controller is built into the CPU itself these days. It's not the same as, say, the nForce2 or i865 chipsets.

[Direhit]

Q: Why don't you recommend Soyo motherboards anymore? I thought you recommended them for entry level computers?

A: In the past, I gave Soyo a fairly strong endorsement, for those who wanted to construct a budget system. With their company recently being acquired by the unscrupulous motherboard company, the PC Chips conglomerate, I do not recommend their boards anymore.

If you filled out their rebate forms, and are expecting your $25 / $50 rebate, you can pretty much write it off, since PC Chips will tell you to get lost.

At this point, there are several other manufacturers that make equivalently priced boards that are still of decent quality.

[Direhit]

Q: What are the differences in the NVIDIA nForce3 chipsets?

A: Generally:

nForce3 150: The weakest of the bunch. These are limited in their Hypertransport speeds (600 MHz), and do not have native Serial ATA controllers built in, although many motherboard companies did add them on afterwards. I no longer recommend this chipset, since the 250-series is readily available, and costs no more.

nForce3 250: Similar to the 150, but now has a full speed Hypertransport (800 MHz), and has built-in Serial ATA.

nForce3 250 GB: This is the same chipset as the nForce3 250, but includes a gigabit ethernet controller.

nForce3 250 Ultra: Similar to the 250 GB, but now includes a 1000 MHz Hypertransport.

[Direhit]

Q: My Athlon 64 motherboard seems to be getting memory errors with memory modules that worked perfectly fine in a nForce2-based motherboard. What's happening?

A: As stated previously, the memory controller is built into the Athlon 64 CPU, and not onto the motherboard, unlike previous generations. As a result, there is less latency, and you might not be able to run your memory at the same aggressive timings that you would with other motherboards.

Knock your memory timings back a bit. Thus, if you were using 2-2-2-5, try 2.5-3-3-7 at first.

Also, some motherboards might have problems using more than one double sided memory module. In these cases, using one DS and one SS module is fine, as is using two SS modules, but not two DS modules. If you must use two DS modules in such a board, reduce the speeds to DDR333.

This is more common with Socket 754 boards, although there are some Socket 754 boards that have overrides.

Socket 939 boards can accomodate twice as many "sides" as their Socket 754 counterparts.

[Direhit]

Q: Are there any nForce4-based motherboards that can use AGP and PCI-E (not at the same time)? I want to re-use my old AGP card.

A: There are some of Biostar's nForce4 and nForce4 Ultra boards, that have what is called a "XGP" port, that allows the use of SOME AGP cards.

http://www.biostar-usa.com/mbdetails.asp?model=nf4st-a9

The XGP port has been tested, and confirmed working, with cards as advanced as the Radeon 9800 XT, although there's no guarantee that something more recent, such as a GeForce 6600 / 6600 GT, would work. Keep watching the link for updates.