Science in the Bible (and dinosaurs)

[EverythingZen]

Since someone took the time to research and organize these thought provoking ideas, and since I took the time to read it I thought some of you might

appreciate this read.

This is a good site for checking biblical citations: http://www.biblegateway.com


"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

I feel it's time to talk about the science that's found in the Bible. I've spent several years researching this stuff and comparing it to all the other

religions. And guess what? None of them even come close! All you skeptics leave me no other option... I am being forced to thrash you! lol (No, I'm

kidding!) Seriously though, I think you guys should check this stuff out. You guys might be surprised at some of this stuff. You can check it all for

yourselves. As a matter of fact, I encourage you to! (Don't just take my word for it.)

Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day

to see if what Paul said was true. (Acts 17:11)

"Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance." -Albert Einstein

My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. (Hosea 4:6)


Note: All Scripture quoted will be from the NIV unless noted as otherwise.



1. The Earth is round.

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth. (Isaiah 40:22)

Comments: How did they know back then that the world was round? That's not what they told me in school when I was younger! They told me that most people

believed the world was flat back in Christopher Columbus' day, and that if they sailed too far in one direction they believed they'd fall off the edge! Yet

there it is, in the book of Isaiah, which was written sometime around 740 B.C.


2. The Earth hangs in the balance of space.

"He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing." (Job 26:7)

Comments: Scholars don't know how old this book is, but alot are saying that Job lived between 2000-1800 B.C. because his wealth is measured in "flocks and

herds." Who knows. How did Job know that the Earth sat in space though? Compare this to all the other religions where the earth "sits on the back of a

turtle," or maybe that "Atlas holds the earth up in his arms."


3. There are more stars than there are grains of sand on the entire earth.

"I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore." (Genesis 22:17)

Comments: Scientists have just recently come to this conclusion in the past few years! Yes, they're now saying that there are just as many (if not more)

stars as there are grains of sand on this planet!


4. There are underwater mountain ranges.

"The engulfing waters threatened me, the deep surrounded me; seaweed was wrapped around my head. To the roots of the mountains I sank down..." (Jonah 2:5,6)

Comments: Alot of people seem to discredit the Bible because of stories like Jonah and the whale. The thing is, there are alot of strange things that

happen in this world that we just can't explain. How did he know that there were mountain ranges under water if the Bible isnt truly inspired by God? We

just made that discovery sometime within the last few decades!


5. Giving the land a rest in order to replenish the nutrients.

The Lord said to Moses on Mount Sinai, "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When you enter the land I am going to give you, the land itself must

observe a sabbath to the Lord. For six years sow your fields, and for six years prune your vineyards and gather their crops. But in the seventh year the

land is to have a sabbath of rest, a sabbath to the Lord. Do not sow your fields or prune your vineyards. Do not reap what grows of itself or harvest the

grapes of your untended vines. The land is to have a year of rest.'" (Leviticus 25:1-5)

Comments: Not only are we not giving the land a rest guys, but we're also pumping it full of man-made chemicals with our fertilizers!


6. After going to the bathroom, to cover it up with dirt so that flies don't spread disease.

"Designate a place outside the camp where you can go to relieve yourself. As part of your equipment have something to dig with, and when you relieve

yourself, dig a hole and cover up your excrement. For the Lord your God moves about in your camp to protect you..." (Deuteronomy 23:12-14)

Comments: I think this one pretty much explains itself, doesn't it?


7. Destroying clay pots after use because of bacteria from blood getting into the cracks, etc.

"The clay pot the meat is cooked in must be broken; but if it is cooked in a bronze pot, the pot is to be scoured and rinsed with water." (Leviticus 6:28)

Comments: How did they know about bacteria back then? Haven't we been led to believe that these people were basically savages back then? If that were

really the case though, we probably wouldn't have lasted very long, now would we? Naturally, God would have made Himself known to us and helped us when it

came to hygiene and sanitation and things like that, right?


8. Washing under running water instead of washing in a basin and contaminating the water supply or spreading disease.

"...wash his clothes, and bathe his body in running water; then he shall be clean." (Leviticus 15:13 NKJV)

Comments: Again, how did they know back then?


9. The five terms used to define the universe and ultimately express our reality are found within the first two verses of the Bible! (Genesis 1:1,2)

Time.........................."In the beginning..."
Energy......................"...God created..."
Space......................."...the heavens..."
Matter......................"...and the earth..."
Motion......................"And the Spirit of God moved..."

Comments: If you guys really knew your physics, and understood the time frame as to when these books were written, believe me... it just doesnt make sense

that these things are in there!


10. The fossil record shows no transition between the different species even though they've supposedly evolved over hundreds of millions of years. God

points out that everything was created and reproduces "according to it's kind." As a matter of fact, He really seems to stress this in the first chapter of

Genesis. (He says it 10 times right there!) If you think about it, fossils don't even form the way they're telling us it happens. For example, if my dog

goes out in the yard and dies, and I'm too lazy to go out there and scoop him up and throw him in the trash, what's going to eventually happen to his body?

He's gonna start to break down and decompose, right? There isn't going to be any fossil that forms! He doesn't get covered by any layer of dirt or

anything, does he? Fossils were formed by the sediment that settled in the great flood! Actually, the "geological column" doesn't exist anywhere in the

world... except in the textbooks that is! It was all made up by a man named Charles Lyell in 1830!


11. Since I'm talking about the flood, I might as well bring up a few other things too. Did you know that there are over 500 flood legends from around the

world? Most of them are very similar to the biblical account of Noah and the ark - a few people escape the waters (usually by building a boat or box),

finding refuge somehow, and eventually go on to repopulate the world! Coincidence? (I don't think so!) Another thing I'd like to point out, is that the

oldest living trees are about 4300 years old. If there was a flood, then all trees would only be as old as the time of that event happening, right? Now

according to the Bible, the earth is only about 6000 years old. Subtract 4300 from 6000 and what do you get? You should get 1700, right? Now add up the

time that passes from Adam to Noah and the flood in Genesis 5. Don't forget to add 100 more years to that though, because Noah was 600 years old when the

flood happened (see Genesis 7:6). What do you get? You should have gotten 1656 years. That's very close, isn't it? The largest coral reef is

approximately 4200 years old as well. (Coincidence?) There are also seashells and fossils of fish found on top of the highest mountains all over the world

today, meaning that the world was at some point completely covered in water. I have heard many scholars try and argue that the flood in the Bible was just a

local flood, and not a worldwide flood. The thing is, why wouldnt God simply have told Noah to pack up and move instead of spending all that time building a

huge boat? That doesnt make sense!


12. The water cycle

"...who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out over the face of the land - the Lord is His name." (Amos 9:6)

"He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind." (Job

36:27,28)

"As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth..." (Isaiah 55:10)

Comments: How did they know about evaporation and the water cycle? It's crazy how God designed things, huh? They couldn't have possibly known about this,

could they? And if they did, why are we being taught that they didn't?


13. Dinosaurs in the Bible

Behemoth

Look at the Behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox. What strength he has in his loins, what power in the muscles of his

belly! His tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are close knit. His bones are like rods of iron. He ranks first among the works of God, yet

his Maker can approach him with His sword. The hills bring him their produce, and all the wild play nearby. Under the lotus plants he lies, hidden among

the reeds in the marsh. The lotuses conceal him in their shadow; the poplars by the stream surround him. When the river rages, he is not alarmed; he is

secure, though the Jordan should surge against his mouth. Can anyone capture him by the eyes, or trap him and pierce his nose? (Job 40:15-24)

Comments: It has been said that the "Behemoth" is an elephant or possibly a hippopotamus. In Job 40:17 it says, "His tail sways like a cedar..." Does this

sound like an elephant or hippopotamus to you? Do either one have large tails? No!



Leviathan

Can you pull in the Leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope? Can you put a cord through his nose or pierce his jaw with a hook? Will

he keep begging you for mercy? Will he speak to you with gentle words? Will he make an agreement with you for you to take him as your slave for life? Can

you make a pet of him like a bird or put him on a leash for your girls? Will traders barter for him? Will they divide him up among the merchants? Can you

fill his hide with harpoons or his head with fishing spears? If you lay a hand on him, you will remember the struggle and never do it again! Any hope of

subduing him is false; the mere sight of him is overpowering. No one is fierce enough to rouse him. Who has a claim against Me that I must pay? Everything

under heaven belongs to Me. I will not fail to speak of his limbs, his strength and his graceful form. Who can strip off his outer coat? Who would

approach him with a bridle? Who dares open the doors of his mouth, ringed about with his fearsome teeth? His back has rows of shields tightly sealed

together; each is so close to the next that no air can pass between. They are joined fast to one another; they cling together and cannot be parted. His

snorting throws out flashes of light; his eyes are like rays of dawn. Firebands stream from his mouth; sparks of fire shoot out. Smoke pours from his

nostrils as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds. His breath sets coals ablaze, and flames dart from his mouth. Strength resides in his neck; dismay

goes before him. The folds of his flesh are tightly joined; they are firm and immoveable. His chest is hard as rock, hard as lower millstone. When he

rises up, the mighty are terrified; they retreat before his thrashing. The sword that reaches him has no effect, nor does the spear or the dart or the

javelin. Iron he treats like straw and bronze like rotten wood. Arrows do not make him flee; slingstones are like chaff to him. A club seems to him like a

piece of straw; he laughs at the rattling of the lance. His undersides are jagged potsherds, leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge. He makes

the depths churn like a boiling caldron and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment. Behind him he leaves a glistening wake; one would think the deep had

white hair. Nothing on earth is his equal a creature without fear. He looks down on all that are haughty; he is king over all that are proud. (Job 41:1-34)

It was You who split open the sea by your power: You broke the heads of the monster in the waters. It was You who crushed the heads of the Leviathan and

gave him as food to the creatures of the desert. (Psalm 74:13,14)

There is the sea, vast and spacious, teeming with creatures beyond number living things both large and small. There the ships go to and fro, and the

leviathan, which You formed to frolic there. (Psalm 104:25,26)

In that day, the Lord will punish with His sword, His fierce, great and powerful sword, Leviathan the gliding serpent, Leviathan the coiling serpent; He will

slay the monster of the sea. (Isaiah 27:1)

Comments: I believe that dinosaurs have always lived with man, but that man eventually killed most of them off. This may be where we get all the medieval

tales of knights slaying dragons. Did you notice that the Leviathan had smoke and flames that came from his nose and mouth? (Job 41:18-21) Dont think this

is possible? Scientists have also just recently discovered a beetle that shoots flames out of his back side! This may also be where we get the sailor's

stories about sea monsters. There are hundreds of lakes around the world where people report seeing these things still. The thing is, our ships are now

loud and possibly scare these things off, whereas back in the day, they used sails didn't they? There are also specific routes that these ships use today.

These things probably just stay out of the way! Actually, there's places down in the Congo in Africa where the tribe people say these things still live.

They're all in marshes and areas that are extremely dangerous places to go into. There are a few pictures of these things floating around though. One

washed up on a beach in California in 1925, and another dead one was pulled up in a net back in the 1970's while they were dragging it along the ocean floor.


<img src="http://www.drdino.com/img/artImages/115/moorepics.gif">
The Moore's Beach Monster that washed up on a California beach in 1925, roughly 2 miles north of Santa Cruz.


14. To do the circumcision on the 8th day.

For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised (Genesis 17:12)

Comments: There is an essential blood clotting element that is only present after the 8th day of newborns life. Actually, it is at its highest on the 8th

day though.


15. A possible reference to atoms.

By faith we understand that the universe was formed at Gods command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Comments: I think this explains itself.


16. The earth could have been formed from the salt water in the oceans.

And God said, Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear. (Genesis 1:9)

But they deliberately forget that long ago by Gods word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. (2 Peter 3:5)

The earth is the Lords, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it; for He founded it upon the seas and established it upon the waters. (Psalm

24:1,2)

Comments: All of the different rocks basically fit into 4 or 5 different categories. Each group is made up of a certain amount of some kind of salt

compound. Could the earth simply have been formed by large amounts of heat and pressure applied to the salt water? Could we find such a large variety

within these 4 or 5 groups because of the flood? Science seems to indicate that.


17. Man is made up of the exact same thing as the ground.

The Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. (Genesis 2:7)

By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.

(Genesis 3:19)

Comments: Scientists have discovered that the exact same elements found in the ground can all be found in the human body! If you think about it, what

happens when we die? We begin to decompose and eventually turn back into dust just like God said we would!


18. The 1st Law of Thermodynamics

Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. (Genesis 1:31)

Comments: The 1st Law of Thermodynamics states: Matter and energy neither be created nor destroyed. So where did we come from? These scientists all know

this too (that the Big Bang Theory and evolution couldnt have happened). Check this out:

I will not accept that [creation] philosophically, because I do not want to believe in God. Therefore, I choose to believe in that which I know is

scientifically impossible, spontaneous generation arising to evolution. George Wald, Nobel Prize Winner

The truth is, theyre teaching the Theory of Evolution in schools because it fits into their political agenda. Actually, thats one of the first things the

communists do when they come into a country and want to subvert their government. They dont want you believing in a Creator or thinking that you have

certain unalienable rights as the Declaration of Independence declares. Im not going to get into this right now, but I will in the future.


19. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (Entropy)

Comments: There are many, many references to this in the Bible. Im not going to try and find them all. Entropy is defined as thus in my dictionary here:

Entropy - 1. A measure of the capacity of a system to undergo spontaneous change. 2. A measure of randomness, disorder, or chaos in a system.

Basically, everything moves towards chaos or disorder as time passes. Things dont become highly organized like theyre trying to tell us the universe did

(all by itself) in school. The minute you are born you begin to die, and as you do, things begin to go wrong with your body, right?

All men are like the grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field. The grass withers (Isaiah 40:6,7)


20. Both creationists and evolutionists pretty much agree on the overall order in which things came to be.

Creation View:

1. God creates the earth and it is covered in water
2. God provides the light and heat
3. God forms the atmosphere
4. God creates land
5. God makes the vegetation grows
6. God creates the sun, moon, and stars
7. God creates fish
8. God creates birds
9. God creates land animals
10. God creates man

Evolutionary View:

1. The sun is somehow formed
2. Particles somehow are produced and somehow gather together to form the earth and it is somehow drawn to the sun which provides light and heat. The earth

is also covered in water in the beginning.
3. The atmosphere is somehow formed
4. Land emerges
5. Vegetation grows
6. Life somehow begins in water
7. Something somehow grows legs, crawls out of the water, and somehow turns into a reptile
8. Reptiles somehow turn into birds
9. Birds somehow turn into land animals (mammals)
10. Mammals somehow turn into man

Comments: Very close indeed. You guys have been led to believe that the Bibles account of creation is not at all close or even scientific! Actually, their

account is the one that isnt scientific! Anyways, if Moses is the author of Genesis, how could he possibly have known way back then the general order in

which things came to be? He wasnt around when the earth was created! Yet this is pretty much the order in which we all agree on things came into existence

today!


21. Complex weather patterns

a. Circular patterns in the wind

The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. (Ecclesiastes 1:6)

b. Path for the thunderstorms and lightning

when He made a decree for the rain and a path for the thunderstorm

What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed, or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth? Who cuts a channel for the

torrents of rain, and a path for the thunderstorm? (Job 38:24,25)

c. Ocean currents

and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas. (Psalm 8:8)

d. Underwater springs

Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked the recesses of the deep? (Job 38:16)

In the six hundredth year of Noahs life, on the seventeenth day of the second month on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth (Genesis 7:11)

e. Arctic ice caps

From whose womb comes the ice? Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens when the waters become hard as stone, when the surface of the deep is frozen?

(Job 38:29,30)



Conclusion:



As you can see, there is much more to the Bible than what theyre teaching us in the schools or in church. If anyone is interested in these things and wants

to learn more, I would recommend Dr. Kent Hovinds Video Seminar Series (www.drdino.com), or Grant Jeffreys book entitled THE SIGNATURE OF GOD

(grantjeffrey.com). THE UNSEEN HAND by Ralph Epperson also has a chapter on creation and the Theory of Evolution too. Both he and Dr. Hovind also talk

about how by teaching the Theory of Evolution it will help play into some peoples political agendas as well, eventually helping to bring about the New World

Order. These guys will go more into depth than I have just briefly done here. There are many other sources as well. Do a search on Google or something for

apologetics. Thankyou for taking the time to read this.


-Levi

[sparkz]

Eh.

[puFf]

Ok I'll bite :).

Made it to about #8, read #20 and the conclusion. I haven't read the bible. Tried but lost interest about half way through genesis. Respect people of all faiths though because I feel it offers a lot of serenity to their lives and can/could offer good things to the harmony of us all living together when taken in the big picture (if we could just all get along). But I do have some problems when they try to introduce it into science.

For example, take #1 ...

"1. The Earth is round.

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth. (Isaiah 40:22)

Comments: How did they know back then that the world was round? That's not what they told me in school when I was younger! They told me that most people ..."

The christian church sure did ostrasize Galileo when he suggested that the earth revolved around the sun and not the other way around. That quote could be interpreted in so many ways.

But I figure the author of the text you quoted was more trying to justify the evolution vs. creationist debate being taught in schools. In a sly kind of way. That made #20 stand out to me...

"1. God creates the earth and it is covered in water ...
1. The sun is somehow formed "

Won't quote all of #20 but that's what separates science from religion imho. An absolute vs a "lets figure this sh** out". That's why I think creationism should be left out of the science classes and left to theology/phylosophy classes. It's a step back vs. technological advances. Science is not an absolute and that's what keeps it progressing and us learning more about our planet and the universe we live in.

[Terminotaur]

Explain the science behind the sun standing still in the sky.

[puFf]

You talking to me or refering EverythingZen's quoted text?

[SenSai]

You can look in the Bible and find anything to support your argument. Hell, it's been done for wars, slavery, etc (any other number of human atrocitities). It's all about interpretation, because you can make words say anything if you don't know what the original author intended (or maybe you do, but selectively chose which words to present to alter their original meaning). To me, trying to prove the Bible is scientific is about as pointless as trying to prove the Bible as a history book.

The Bible, and all other religious texts, are books that serve no historical purpose, no scientific purpose - only a moral purpose. Texts, like the Bible, tries to set basic guidelines about morality and teaching respect toward your fellow man.

[FluxCapacitor]

The egyptians (other empires/civilizations at that time too obviously, the egyptians were quite big into that stuff though, For Example the library at alexandria in egypt housed all of that information) knew most of that stuff by simple science waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy before any of the books in the bible was written. Those ideas put forth in the bible were not new at that time.



The earth is round thing, educated people thousands of years before the church new of the curvature of the earth by shadow manipulation.

[Stayne]

All of that stuff about "how did they know to not reuse clay pots" or "how did they know to wait til the eighth day" or any of those practical things probably came from experience that was then written into law.

You clip the tip too early, it bleeds for days. Wait for a bit, it heals really quickly. How many times does it take to learn a better technique?

You cook something with clay and it leaves a nasty residue inside. You let it sit for a bit and it starts to stink. In a time before soap and dishwashers, it wouldn't take long to learn that either.

The author seems to suggest that scientists simply think that people were retarded and couldn't learn. Human's ability to learn and adapt is what has allowed us to do what we have in this world. Anthropologists would attest to ancient human's ability to learn and improvise.

Anyhow, that report read like a 9th grade "research" paper done by a homeschooler for his minsiter dad/teacher.

[Kersk]

I'm sorry, but if you set out to interpret a piece of text from such a forced point of view, then you can always manage to bend it to your will enough to produce so-called evidence. The fact that most of these are pretty nonsensical shows how desperate the author was getting in his attempt to associate Christianity with science. An understandable goal, I suppose. Afterall, if Christianity could convincingly show prior existance of science within the Bible, then that would probably go a long ways towards mitigating the ever mounting pile of scientific evidence that further discredits the accounts of this particular religion. Honestly though, I guess it's not that shocking of a strategy, especially when considering the drastic changes in public opinion in these last few years. I mean we turn on the news and see scientists doing amazing things like sending probes to other planets, and then the next day we hear about priests sending probes into little choir bo... er, nevermind. :o At the very least, I think it's safe to say that the church is having a pretty rough century. It really puts things in perspective when you consider that less than 400 years ago the church was powerful enough to charge Galileo with religious heresy for his scientific theories, and now the church has come full circle and is frantically trying to "reinterpret" itself to accommodate the discoveries of modern science.

I think I need to make it clear that I respect people that truly have faith, because I see Christianity as just one path towards achieving the same end goal - getting a sense of morality. It may sound crass, but it's all the same to me if people arrive there through logic and personal belief, or through a "carrot on a stick" reward of infinite bliss and constant threats of hell and damnation. So, I try to cut these kindred spirits some slack, but it gets pretty tough when I see things like this:

when you relieve yourself, dig a hole and cover up your excrement. For the Lord your God moves about in your camp to protect you..."
Wow! So people back in the day were smart enough to realize that their shit stinks a little less when they put dirt over it. Great. So, that's your divine evidence that science is a fundamental part of the Bible? Yeesh. A rough century, indeed.

Also, I found this one somewhat interesting:

Creation View:
1. God creates the earth and it is covered in water
2. God provides the light and heat
3. God forms the atmosphere
...
Evolutionary View:
1. The sun is somehow formed
2. Particles somehow are produced and somehow gather together to form the earth and it is somehow drawn to the sun which provides light and heat.
3. The atmosphere is somehow formed
...

You guys have been led to believe that the Bibles account of creation is not at all close or even scientific!

Actually, their account is the one that isnt scientific!
Somehow I think he somehow made a very convincing point somehow showing that scientific theories are somehow not scientific at all, and that by just replacing the word somehow with God somehow makes a non-scientific statement very scientific. Somehow. :eek:

Argh.

[JohnnyBSam]

lol

[FluxCapacitor]

EverythingZen wasnt serious when he called them "thought provoking ideas" right?

[TkMasTaH]

I think it is thought provoking. A lot of them seem farfetched, but dont be so quick as to discredit something purely because you dont believe in it. That same kind of thought leads ultra-radical religious people to completely discredit the idea of dinosaurs and such, purely because they discredit something because it contradicts what they currently belive in. I think an open mind is the best way to approach something such as this, youd be surprised what you may discover.

[Kersk]

I think it is thought provoking. A lot of them seem farfetched, but dont be so quick as to discredit something purely because you dont believe in it. That same kind of thought leads ultra-radical religious people to completely discredit the idea of dinosaurs and such, purely because they discredit something because it contradicts what they currently belive in. I think an open mind is the best way to approach something such as this, youd be surprised what you may discover.I refer you back to the part where the author cites people covering their poop as evidence for science in the Bible.

Oh, and wow:

The truth is, theyre teaching the Theory of Evolution in schools because it fits into their political agenda. Actually, thats one of the first things the communists do when they come into a country and want to subvert their government.
Holy crap, how did I miss that one. So, if you believe in Evolution theory, you've betrayed everything AMERICA believes in and fallen victim to our enemy's evil planz!!!!1 Down with you, Communist scum!

Jesus Christ (:)), the more I read this wall of text, the more rhetoric I find. I love how if you're an atheist you're labeled as "someone that doesn't have an open mind", but if you're a religious zealot like this author, you can do whatever the hell you want.

[Janus]

wow, I will leave this for everyone else to rip apart.

I love how if you're an atheist you're labeled as "someone that doesn't have an open mind", but if you're a religious zealot like this author, you can do whatever the hell you want.

:D

[Kersk]

wow, I will leave this for everyone else to rip apart. :D
Thanks for proving my point. :D

[sc`]

19. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (Entropy)

Comments: There are many, many references to this in the Bible. Im not going to try and find them all. Entropy is defined as thus in my dictionary here:

Entropy - 1. A measure of the capacity of a system to undergo spontaneous change. 2. A measure of randomness, disorder, or chaos in a system.

Basically, everything moves towards chaos or disorder as time passes. Things dont become highly organized like theyre trying to tell us the universe did

(all by itself) in school. The minute you are born you begin to die, and as you do, things begin to go wrong with your body, right?

All men are like the grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field. The grass withers (Isaiah 40:6,7)


20. Both creationists and evolutionists pretty much agree on the overall order in which things came to be.

Creation View:

1. God creates the earth and it is covered in water
2. God provides the light and heat
3. God forms the atmosphere
4. God creates land
5. God makes the vegetation grows
6. God creates the sun, moon, and stars
7. God creates fish
8. God creates birds
9. God creates land animals
10. God creates man

Evolutionary View:

1. The sun is somehow formed
2. Particles somehow are produced and somehow gather together to form the earth and it is somehow drawn to the sun which provides light and heat. The earth

is also covered in water in the beginning.
3. The atmosphere is somehow formed
4. Land emerges
5. Vegetation grows
6. Life somehow begins in water
7. Something somehow grows legs, crawls out of the water, and somehow turns into a reptile
8. Reptiles somehow turn into birds
9. Birds somehow turn into land animals (mammals)
10. Mammals somehow turn into man

Referring to the second law of thermodynamics, right now the universe is expanding and this agrees with universal entropy. So this second the universe has more entropy than it did a minute ago. So we just follow this thought process a couple thousand/million/billion years back and we are back to an ordered state of some level or some type of equilibrium. My thermodynamics professor actually said that the second law of thermodynamics supports the Big Bang Theory roughly a week ago.

The 20th point is the most poorly written argument I have EVER read. Evolutionists/Scientists don't believe that things just somehow happened. They use reasoning of laws such as ...*gasp* gravity *gasp*, chemistry, natural selection, etc.

Yes, the Bible has alot of science in it, and coming from my religious and scientific background, I believe that both creation and evolution are correct and trying to say they disagree with each other is a stupid argument.

[Kersk]

...coming from my religious and scientific background, I believe that both creation and evolution are correct and trying to say they disagree with each other is a stupid argument.Was Man created by God or did we evolve from monkeys? Those possibilities seem pretty freaking mutually exclusive to me. I'm not trying to be facetious about this, I just don't understand how you can say that they are both valid at the same time.

[King_Nada]

Hi kersk, me love you long time.

King

[sc`]

Both of those things go perfectly hand in hand if you look at Genesis symbolically like it should be viewed. God created animals one "day", then he created man the next "day". Who's to say that one day doesn't mean a billion years? He made the fish, then the birds and animals, then the humans. Does this not follow the logical steps of evolution? Do you think the writers of the Bible had any idea what the theory of evolution is? I think not.

I believe that God created the world to have the physics and evolutionary behavior which our current-day scientists now document and attempt to understand.

[Kersk]

Just choosing to interpret the time scale of genesis differently still leaves alot to be desired when trying to simultaneously accommodate evolution and creation:

Where do the dinosaurs fit in? One day, did God just decide, "you know what, these guys aren't working out. Let's try this again... hmm, damnit, where did I leave that huge ass meteor?"

Also, what about the moral issues of a "God-sponsored" evolutionary worldview. The process of evolution is a cold, calculated and heartless system that is completely indifferent to good and evil. But you're saying that God intentionally created that system. How could a benevolent God design and create such a system inherently filled with so much pain, suffering, and death? I thought the animal kingdom was supposed to be an idyllic paradise before we came into the picture. But evolution simply doesn't work without murder, starvation, etc, etc, to produce the opportunity for useful mutations to become actual survival advantages.

What about Free Will and the human soul? I thought that those were unique gifts given explicitly to humans when we were created. Do you believe that those are properties that we inherited or evolved from pre-existing animals? If not, and you feel that those were in fact a special gift from God, then did all the death and suffering of the animals before us happen deterministically?

Doesn't your view of evolution directly conflict with the infallibility of God? If God was perfect, why would he need to go through so many intermediate generations that produce so many horribly degenerate specimens just to create a more evolved species?

Those are just a few examples of, I'm sure, a much larger set of issues with this "created evolution" view that I can't see a clear explanation for. Also, you kind of avoided my initial question:

Was Man created by God or did we evolve from monkeys?

[Kersk]

Hi kersk, me love you long time.

KingRawr. <3

[Streetwolf]

I only read #1 before I decided I didn't want to read more right now.

It's a common misconception that everyone back then thought the world was flat. In fact, so many people in those days knew the earth was round. It was just a few idiots in Europe that feared falling off some unknown edge.

[Jimyd]

Where do the dinosaurs fit in? One day, did God just decide, "you know what, these guys aren't working out. Let's try this again... hmm, damnit, where did I leave that huge ass meteor?"

I bet you hes thinking the same thing right now and is just waiting for an oportune time to have reason to do it again. =)

Don't hate me for saying that.

[Kersk]

I bet you hes thinking the same thing right now and is just waiting for an oportune time to have reason to do it again. =)

Don't hate me for saying that.Or, judging by all the close calls with asteroids that we've been having lately, maybe God just throws like a girl.

[FluxCapacitor]

Maybe god is right handed but is throwing lefty?

[|RES|arod]

I don't see why people are allowed to jest at others religions in the Academy. It is almost common practice nowadays. Is it that hard to refute an argument without throwing in disrespectful and immature jokes?

Back to the topic:
Also, what about the moral issues of a "God-sponsored" evolutionary worldview. The process of evolution is a cold, calculated and heartless system that is completely indifferent to good and evil. [\quote]
Since when have all animals (not humans) abided by laws of good and evil? To describe an evolutionary system as cold, calculated, and heartless is simply a misnomer. It is a SYSTEM. I don't understand why you think that a system has to be good or evil.
[Quote=Kersk]But you're saying that God intentionally created that system. How could a benevolent God design and create such a system inherently filled with so much pain, suffering, and death? I thought the animal kingdom was supposed to be an idyllic paradise before we came into the picture.
So, you are telling me that God needs to create a system of robots that only do good? You should realize that with your proposal, free will is completely out of the picture. I don't know where you get the notion that the animal kingdom was an 'idyllic paradise' before humans came into play.
But evolution simply doesn't work without murder, starvation, etc, etc, to produce the opportunity for useful mutations to become actual survival advantages.Again, you are applying human morality to animals. It simply doesn't work.
What about Free Will and the human soul? I thought that those were unique gifts given explicitly to humans when we were created. Do you believe that those are properties that we inherited or evolved from pre-existing animals? If not, and you feel that those were in fact a special gift from God, then did all the death and suffering of the animals before us happen deterministically?Are you denying the intelligence of our own species? Yes, animals have free will to a much lesser degree than our own. I don't see a problem with human choice evolving through previous animals to its position today.

[post-mortem]

I wouldnt care of the bible was filled with blank pages. I still believe in god.

just listen. If you read this and still dont believe in god you are lost. (read every word)


first of all I have to end the dinosaur thing. Why would god say in the bible, Oh yea btw guys I made these cool looking things before you and then I killed them all so you guys could live here. That is something he told us by simply leaving fossils for us to find. So what if he left it out? Want him to tell you how to whipe your ass to?

next what are people seriously. I have teeth that grew out of my gums for a purpose. To chew food. My eyeborws are to stop water from getting in my eyes, my eyelashes are to keep dust and other particles out. Nails wich grow out of my fingers. Eyes to see. I mean come fucking on. Do you really think humans grew up to become the perfect being? Humans are the perfect in every way. The only way we could have been made better would have made us to powerful. Like being able to fly and so on.

and lets just look at it from a diff prospective.. we are on a big rock orbiting around another big rock that delivers us heat. Not only that but we are in the middle of FUCKING NOWHERE. Just tell me wtf space is exactly. Does it end? Does it go forever? Where did it come from? Was space always here?

The big question is why did god make us. The only thing I can think of besides he likes making beings is he just loves life. Its hard to explain but think about this. God could have made us right in front of him and said "sup im god." But he didnt, instead he put us on earth.The ONLY way to see if we are worthy of life is to love him like a father without even knowing him.

you answer those questions and then you can say you dont belive in a creator. Until then keep being a big retard.

[SenSai]

I wouldnt care of the bible was filled with blank pages. I still believe in god.

just listen. If you read this and still dont believe in god you are lost. (read every word)

Ok! I start by saying that I'm going into this giving you no benefit of the doubt and saying you actually believe what you just wrote. Let's do this...


first of all I have to end the dinosaur thing. Why would god say in the bible, Oh yea btw guys I made these cool looking things before you and then I killed them all so you guys could live here. That is something he told us by simply leaving fossils for us to find. So what if he left it out? Want him to tell you how to whipe your ass to?

Please show me, other than the Bible, that God actually says things. Why would God even want to speak to us? When I look at fossils, the first thing I DON'T think of is 'this must be a sign from God to tell me about these creatures.'

next what are people seriously. I have teeth that grew out of my gums for a purpose. To chew food. My eyeborws are to stop water from getting in my eyes, my eyelashes are to keep dust and other particles out. Nails wich grow out of my fingers. Eyes to see. I mean come fucking on. Do you really think humans grew up to become the perfect being? Humans are the perfect in every way. The only way we could have been made better would have made us to powerful. Like being able to fly and so on.

And this all requires the work of God how? We have teeth, eyebrows, etc...and this makes us perfect because they do things? You've got to be kidding me. And you think we're perfect?! The bodies of humans are far from perfect, we're very fragile and require protection. And why would we be given some stupid power as flying...this isn't a Marvel/DC comic, we follow laws of physics not ideas of fantasy.

and lets just look at it from a diff prospective.. we are on a big rock orbiting around another big rock that delivers us heat. Not only that but we are in the middle of FUCKING NOWHERE. Just tell me wtf space is exactly. Does it end? Does it go forever? Where did it come from? Was space always here?

I hate to tell you, but the sun isn't a big rock. It is very dense gases and plasma going through thermonuclear reactions to give off heat. But still, being in the middle of no where is a moot point. If you'd like to know what space is, please refer to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space#Astronomical_space). There are many prevailing theories as to the age of space, I suggest looking into the Big Bang theory or one of the many offshoots (usually some new theory comes out and they'll put it in your month Scientific America).

The big question is why did god make us. The only thing I can think of besides he likes making beings is he just loves life. Its hard to explain but think about this. God could have made us right in front of him and said "sup im god." But he didnt, instead he put us on earth.The ONLY way to see if we are worthy of life is to love him like a father without even knowing him.

Why does it matter if a supernatural being make us? So what, he put us on Earth to sit around and give thanks to being alive all day? That's a pretty dull existence if all you do is sit there all day and be like "yay, God made me!" What exactly is going to happen by loving a supernatural being as a father? Good and bad things are going to happen regardless of what happens. No supernatural being is going to influence the word to work specifically in my favor. If God were to act in such a way, we would not have free will. A benign God violates the concept of free will that all Christians hold on to.


you answer those questions and then you can say you dont belive in a creator. Until then keep being a big retard.

Science may not have all the answers to the questions of life, but it is sure as hell much better than a belief in something that was just told to you is there. I still believe in God, but not as defined by the Western religions. God is not out there to do good things, he is a neutral being. He is not out to come back one day and be our savior. Everyone keeps on praying to some being ask him to make right all the wrongs in the world, but no one realizes we already have the power to do this ourselves. It is the apathy of man in believing that someone(thing) else is going to save us from our problems that hinders us from correcting the wrongs of this world.

[Kersk]

Is it that hard to refute an argument without throwing in disrespectful and immature jokes?Ok, I'll admit that I got a little carried away, but many of the author's points are pretty outrageous and some of them are just flat out personally offensive, especially his implication that the theory of evolution is taught in order to support some sort of communist political agenda.

I don't understand why you think that a system has to be good or evil.I don't understand why you think that I think a system has to be good or evil. I explicitly stated that the process of evolution is indifferent to good or evil. By "cold and calculated" I meant that it is like a machine that simply marches on without any moral bias. However, if we're going to operate under the assumption that the system of evolution was intentionally designed by God, then it seems completely legitimate to examine God's purpose for this system. The purpose of evolution seems to be for the creation of increasingly resilient species through blind trial and error. But the very nature of evolution just begs the question - why the hell would an omnipotent and perfect God need to make use of such an inefficient method to create new forms of life? How is forcing countless creatures to suffer and die morally justifiable when he has the power to avoid it all with a snap of his fingers?

So, you are telling me that God needs to create a system of robots that only do good? You should realize that with your proposal, free will is completely out of the picture. Again, you are applying human morality to animals. It simply doesn't work.Yes, animals have free will to a much lesser degree than our own. I don't see a problem with human choice evolving through previous animals to its position today.This is a frustrating situation for me since in order to discuss how evolution and Christianity's account of creation are mutually exclusive, I have to argue from the point of view that both are true and point out the conflicting issues. This is difficult for me since I feel that the God described in the Christian faith is initially self-contradictory even before we introduce the idea of designed evolution. For example, I feel that there are a number of cases where this supposedly perfect God displays outbursts of pride, vanity, cruelty, etc. Furthermore, I'm fundamentally undecided on whether free will even exists or not. I don't really want to get into those issues, but that's where I'm coming from. I feel like I'm playing "the God's advocate" here.

With that in mind, I don't really see where you stand on any of this since your position is somewhat confusing. Do you think animals can feel pain and suffer or not? Don't you think the world is a pretty grim place from an evolutionary perspective? How does that not inherently conflict with the Christian worldview?

Additionally, what exactly is a "lesser" form of free will? How does that even begin to make sense? Also, if you feel that "human choice" was evolved from previous animals, at what point did God start judging our lineage of ancestral species? Did really smart monkeys go to heaven or hell based on if they stole bananas and had sex with their their neighbor's wives? What about cavemen? Early human civilizations? Is every ancient Greek burning in hell for worshiping false gods?

[post-mortem]

If you really believe in what you are saying then this is what you believe:

Space has always been. For no reason, what we know as space has always been around and eventually things blew up and somehow made us. Not only did it create us but gave us arms legs a million features that work perfectly with eachother not to mention the inside of our bodies that are so complex and infact PERFECT that they make us wake up in the morning protecting our body from diseases and everything eles.. The things we need somehow just grow out of the ground why? Becuase of some scientic crap your gonna pull out of your ass? We have medacine for just about everything. Is that not perfect enough for you? What would make us perfect in your book? What did you want god to give us? A fucking man of fucking steel body?

And when in reading my explaination did you say to yourself Oh he means we should sit around all day and say YAYAYAY for god.

you are intelligent but I dont exactly get what you are saying. You believe in God but you believe in the big bang theroy? That doesnt make sense.

[Terminotaur]

We're physically perfect in every way except for our vestigial organs, common genetic defects, common anatomical structural deficiences, common susceptibility to disease, cancer, aging, fragility, ease of choking due to using the same tube for eating and breathing, inability for severed nerves to naturally repair, the body's willingness to store fat despite obesity, and pretty much everything else you can imagine that the practice of medicine has sought to cure.

you are intelligent but I dont exactly get what you are saying. You believe in God but you believe in the big bang theroy? That doesnt make sense.
He never said he believed in the big bang theory in this thread.

[SenSai]

And when in reading my explaination did you say to yourself Oh he means we should sit around all day and say YAYAYAY for god.

No, I was thinking this back when I was in Catholic Sunday school being told that we need to be like those up in heaven, just standing around praising God all day.

you are intelligent but I dont exactly get what you are saying. You believe in God but you believe in the big bang theroy? That doesnt make sense.

Term is right, I never said I believed in the Big Bang Theory. But, I believe you can have both a belief in God and the Big Bang Theory (or any scientific theory at aims with religious doctrine), it just means you forgo some of the beliefs in God Western religion has infused in you.

To me, God is not some holy, supernatural being working for the good of all mankind. What would be the point of someone with that power who has to manage the entire universe really care about helping you get your new car or saving a failing relationship? If he did, that would be breaking our free will, which Western religions seem to tout around very hypocratically. For me, God is more of a concept rather than a being. God is balance. God is good, God is evil. The yin and the yang. Everything and nothing, all at the exact same time.

I've recently been changing my beliefs and opening up my mind to questions I never thought I would ask. It all started by asking myself one day, if all of the worlds were found out to be a sham, would I still hold true to my morals? I finally stated (because I've thought this for a long time) that my morals are not tied to my religious beliefs. After coming to that conclusion, I started asking myself more things about my beliefs and why I would not question them, sending me on a soul-searching journey. Although I've come a long way from where I was, I still don't have all the answers I seek - and the pursuit of knowledge, experience, wisdom is what life is all about.

[Kersk]

If you really believe in what you are saying then this is what you believe:

Space has always been. For no reason, what we know as space has always been around and eventually things blew up and somehow made us.God has always been. For no reason, what we know as God has always been around and he eventually decided that he wanted some company and somehow made us.





Pardon the slight parody, but it illustrates the point that I'm trying to make. The concept of God doesn't solve anything, it just rephrases the initial question and wraps it up with some mystical properties that makes it easier to avoid the impossible task of trying to understand. That impossible question is simply, "How the hell is there anything at all?" I have no fucking clue, nor does anyone else on the Earth for that matter. How did space and matter come to be? People of faith are quick to proclaim that "God created it!" Great, problem solved. Oh wait, where the hell did God come from? Their response? "Blasphemy!" Right. So basically no one knows a damn thing.

To be clear, I don't discount the possibility that we were created by some higher being. However, the idea that this supreme being would create life and then sit back acting like Santa Claus on steroids seems unlikely and, well, pretty silly. That's just me though. Anyway, I don't see how the existance or non-existance of an entity that created humanity would inherently solve the main question, other than adding or removing a layer of abstraction depending on how you look at it.

Not only did it create us but gave us arms legs a million features that work perfectly with eachother not to mention the inside of our bodies that are so complex and infact PERFECT that they make us wake up in the morning protecting our body from diseases and everything eles..Evolution can reasonably explain our highly functional, but slightly flawed bodies. We are not perfect. Why aren't we perfect? The reason is inherent from an evolutionary perspective. From a religious perspective though, I have no clue. I guess God really liked 'them apples.

Note to self: Don't eat God's Apples - he can hold a grudge, let me tell you.

The things we need somehow just grow out of the ground why? Becuase of some scientic crap your gonna pull out of your ass?
You're looking at it from the wrong point of view. They aren't here now just because we happen to need them now. Instead, we are here now because they were there then. Long ago, apparently our species was able to digest a number of abundant lifeforms and thus managed to survive. Other species that had a more limited diet went extinct. Evolution!

We have medacine for just about everything. Is that not perfect enough for you?I didn't know the Bible had a list of medicine for just about everything. Oh wait, it doesn't. I guess it's all that scientific crap that we pulled out of our asses. Why are there so many diseases in this perfect world anyway?

And when in reading my explaination did you say to yourself Oh he means we should sit around all day and say YAYAYAY for god.Slightly off topic, but here's a question for you:

Which path sounds more like Free Will to you?

A) Making your own decisions and living with the consequences of those decisions until you die.

or...

B) Following the moral code of some hopefully correctly picked religion which directly dictates your decisions and actions in life. Then, if you picked the right religion and you are judged to have met the prerequisite amount of faith in your selected deity, you are sent to enjoy infinite bliss. Or, if you messed up and/or you merely selected the wrong religion, you get sent to suffer eternal punishment in hell.

YAYAYAYA for [insert hopefully correct name of god].

[post-mortem]

God and just talking about life in general and how we got here is something I find really interesting.

When I think of God I don’t think of him as my god. I think when people believe in God we all believe in the same one. Religions formed because of different beliefs in what God is and the laws God gives us. I believe as long as you are a good person God will judge you accordingly, even if you don’t believe in him. Most religions believe in heaven and hell or a different form of them. I don’t think everything I believe is right but nobody has all the answers.

[SenSai]

God and just talking about life in general and how we got here is something I find really interesting.

When I think of God I don’t think of him as my god. I think when people believe in God we all believe in the same one. Religions formed because of different beliefs in what God is and the laws God gives us. I believe as long as you are a good person God will judge you accordingly, even if you don’t believe in him. Most religions believe in heaven and hell or a different form of them. I don’t think everything I believe is right but nobody has all the answers.

I see the formation of religions as a way to explain what we do not know about. As time passed, religion also took on the role of teaching/preaching moral principles to live by. I do not believe in a heaven or hell, I really don't see a point to it. It is hope and fear that leads us to think of something as an afterlife, because we all yearn for immortality and a reward for leading a good life.

I see afterlife as something more plain, real. Everyone in this world is immortal. Although you may not go down in history for doing something, the choices you make reverberate through the ages. I guess a simple example is the relation of father to son. A father teaches his son how to be a father through life experiences. When that son becomes a father, he will use similar methods to raise his child but also add his own. This goes on for many generations. Although the great^23 grandsons may not know why they raise their child in a particular manner, ultimately it was the fathers of generations before where the influence comes from. Despite not having a face behind the action, the actions and knowledge passed down through the ages is a sum result of the input of all who were related. In this sense, a bit of everyone that has ever lived, are living, and will live was/are/will be immortalized.

And I'm ok with this. My mark on this world may never make the history books, but I am content in knowing that a little part of me will be immortalized and passed down through the ages.

[Terminotaur]

Are you a Christian who believes that the Bible is the word of God, post-mortem?

[puFf]

God and just talking about life in general and how we got here is something I find really interesting.

...

Ya me too. Blows my mind as I start thinking about it looking out into space. Asking many of the same questions as you have posted previously (or maybe it was someone else). How big is "space"? What is it made of? Just having a word "universe" kind of implies an end. Where is the end of the universe? Even Einstein was quoted something to the effect of "trying to predict the word of God".

To me, the whole arguement on the concept of evolution seems to be overshadowed by "how we homo sapiens came to be?". Rather than looking at some of the benefits this concept of advantageous mutations in the survival of the fitess provide in present day science. Specifically in genetics, microbiology and biochemistry. For example, the studying viruses, toxins, DNA, pesticides, bacterias, cancer, etc etc etc.

[Jimyd]

Scribe early AD + vision = Psychic present day + mental powerness/ability .

Good trend open your eyes. =)

[Kersk]

When I think of God I don’t think of him as my god...

Religions formed because of different beliefs in what God is and the laws God gives us.So you are saying that all religions are actually man-made misinterpretations of the true nature of God? Why are you a Christian at all if you truly believe what you just said. Why haven't you stripped your personal beliefs of this excess Christian baggage and embraced your own idea of a universal God? Also, if this is the case, whose moral code is used to determine if we have lived a good life or not? Many religions have fundamentally conflicting concepts of the true moral path, so what do we do? Follow our own sense of morality to get into heaven? Wouldn't that mean a radical islamic terrorist that truly believes he is acting in a divine way would go to heaven? Even if you try to get around my original argument by saying it doesn't really matter which religion we believe in since we can get to Heaven without having to even believe in God (something that I assume most Christians would take great offense to), you're still forced to play a crapshoot on what determines a "good" life in order to gain God's approval. So if we can't reliably use our own sense of morality, nor does it seem reasonable to randomly choose one of many conflicting religion's for their moral code, where then do you suggest we look towards as an example of living a "good" life? How is anything you say not going to be inherently laden with aspects from a specific world view?

God and just talking about life in general and how we got here is something I find really interesting. Personally, I'd argue that both this sentence and all of the issues that I brought up in the paragraph above become quite a bit more simple if we just remove the concept of God altogether. Let's try it out:



"Just talking about life in general and how we got here is something I find really interesting."



Hey, what do you know, it really seems alot more natural to say without "God and" tacked on there. Hmm. Whether or not that translates into something philosophically meaningful, I leave up to you.

[Kap`n]

forgive my stupidity

if its so impossible that man came to be naturally through science and evolution because as some as you state "man is so perfect (ROFL)", how can you possible believe that god just exists naturally. You appear to contradict yourself and use an argument that says were perfect and mustve been created by a higher, more perfect, being with unlimited knowledge/power but he mustve just been in existence for all of time and/or appeared out of nowhere... i suppose your argument is you just gotta believe that god was first before actual existence and no conclusion must be reached about his origin.

i really wanna an answer about this cause im clueless.

[post-mortem]

I dont get why people dont think we are perfect. Just imagine if 1 of your arms was put on top of your head instead of on your shoulder. How does evolution explain that it would put it on our side and make it easier for us?

Besides christianity is the only religion that proved itself to be true in so many ways wheter you think so or not. The old testament stated jesus coming way before he was born.

To not belive in God would mean that Jesus was just some random guy who wanted to be Gods son so went and got himself tortured for absolutly no reason. Besides of all the miralces and good deeds he done when he was on earth.

God didnt answer all the questions we have becuase why would he? God wants to see how loyal of a person you are and if you deserve to go to heaven or not. The only way he could do that would be to put us on a planet in the middle of no where. Even if you don't belive in God you should stilll be a good person overall. It's just a natural feeling of whats right and wrong.

If God proved himself to be real then there would have been no point to put us on this planet. He could have put us right in front of him.

[FluxCapacitor]

How can you possibly believe we are perfect? How is cancer perfect? How is death perfect? How is what happens to the older generation perfect? Is our useless appendix bursting and causing painful death perfect? Get real. Humans are far from perfect. If we were perfect our bodies wouldnt be so frail, we wouldnt need houses, clothes, cars, anything. We are complex, but far far far from perfect.

[King_Nada]

I dont get why people dont think we are perfect. Just imagine if 1 of your arms was put on top of your head instead of on your shoulder. How does evolution explain that it would put it on our side and make it easier for us?

Bilateral symetry came very early in the evolutionary process from what i've read.


Besides christianity is the only religion that proved itself to be true in so many ways wheter you think so or not. The old testament stated jesus coming way before he was born.
Too funny to argue.


To not belive in God would mean that Jesus was just some random guy who wanted to be Gods son so went and got himself tortured for absolutly no reason. Besides of all the miralces and good deeds he done when he was on earth.

yeah it's pretty inconcievable that anyone would be willing to die for something they believe is true. That's humans never go to war and kill each other, because the wrong side realizes they are wrong and don't want to die.


God didnt answer all the questions we have becuase why would he? God wants to see how loyal of a person you are and if you deserve to go to heaven or not. The only way he could do that would be to put us on a planet in the middle of no where. Even if you don't belive in God you should stilll be a good person overall. It's just a natural feeling of whats right and wrong.

God sure does have a limited imagination. If he really wanted to test our loyalty, why is there a bible? Why was jesus born to prove god exists.


If God proved himself to be real then there would have been no point to put us on this planet. He could have put us right in front of him.
Its almost as if there isn't a god... crazy.

King

[post-mortem]

how is being crucified funny?

[FluxCapacitor]

You arent one of those people that believes crucification was special for jesus right? The romans crucified EVERYBODY. That was their main form of torture/punishment/execution. Jesus got the same death as everyone else. Also the whole peg through the hands stigmata thing doesnt exactly ring true. Crucification was through the wrist because the hand would get ripped through from supporting the bodyweight. It also killed them faster but still slow enough to take a while. Being crucified was kind of an art form that the romans perfected.

Being crucified is actually quite humerous when talked about as if it is a special thing. The egyptians had a better way of doing it. They would put you on an X of wood and tie wet leather straps all over your body and let the heat shrink the leather and eventually kill you. But never around the chest or head so that the death actually took days to happen. One of the most painful execution styles from ancient times that I have read about. (BA in ancient civilizations and archaeology, double major)

And did jesus actually say he was god's son? I know the random guys who wrote the bible way AFTER his death make that claim. But did jesus SUPPOSADLY say that? I've read the bible numerous times (old and new testament in various languages) and have never really found him to be so outright about it in his supposed words.

[Kersk]

I dont get why people dont think we are perfect.Why do you keep focusing on this issue of perfection? I'd imagine that most other advocates for Christianity would stay far, far away from trying to emphasize this point when there are clearly so many obvious examples of imperfection in our world - a number of which have even been listed in several posts within this thread.

Just imagine if 1 of your arms was put on top of your head instead of on your shoulder. How does evolution explain that it would put it on our side and make it easier for us?I honestly don't mean to be rude, but once again you seem to be misunderstanding the fundamental basics of how evolution works. I would be more than happy to explain it to you, but, judging from your posts so far, I get the feeling that you wouldn't even do me the courtesy of reading it. :(

Besides christianity is the only religion that proved itself to be true in so many ways wheter you think so or not.Wow? Wow.

To not belive in God would mean that Jesus was just some random guy who wanted to be Gods son so went and got himself tortured for absolutly no reason.Assuming that Jesus even existed, then yes, you are absolutely correct. So tell me again, why is this a compelling reason that I should believe in God?

From my perspective, your argument is exactly how you wrote it: "Well, if there is no God, then some random guy died for no reason!!! Sad, but oh well."

I think the reason that you feel this is a valid and compelling point is because you incorrectly evaluated your own argument. While you managed to temporarily consider that God doesn't exist, I think you failed to temporarily suspend your firm belief that Jesus is the son of God, such that, in your mind, your argument became: "Well, if there is no God, then that means the son of God died for no reason!!! That's a shocking and upsetting idea, so therefore it is clear evidence that there must be a God!"

Hmm.

Anyway, there clearly have never been any other people described in other religions that have claimed they were a son/daughter/prophet/roommate of God and subsequently martyred themselves, underwent divine hardships, or whatever else. *cough*

Besides of all the miralces and good deeds he done when he was on earth.http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~kersk/levitation.jpg

In our modern high-tech world, if this idiot can honestly get people to believe that he can levitate, then it hardly seems like a stretch that someone could similarily impress a crowd of simple peasants in ancient times. Now, while you're considering that, throw in a millennia or two of biased reinterpretations, translations, oral history, etc... and wallah, suddenly Jesus can win Connect 4 in 3 moves and all that jazz.

God didnt answer all the questions we have becuase why would he? God wants to see how loyal of a person you are and if you deserve to go to heaven or not. The only way he could do that would be to put us on a planet in the middle of no where. Even if you don't belive in God you should stilll be a good person overall.So basically, God is too busy playing the latest expansion pack for The Sims to give us an orientation speech? Right.

It's just a natural feeling of whats right and wrong.So, once again, what about a terrorist that honestly believes what he is doing is naturally right. Isn't it kind of arrogant to automatically assume your beliefs are the "natural" ones?

[andr3w]

christians are justified by their faith, and their faith alone.

that statement about sums it up for me.

[Terminotaur]

An argument from faith is a very bad argument.

[andr3w]

whos say im making an argument?

[SenSai]

I dont get why people dont think we are perfect. Just imagine if 1 of your arms was put on top of your head instead of on your shoulder. How does evolution explain that it would put it on our side and make it easier for us?

I'm pretty sure you can't make that statement about an arm coming from the head because no animal throughout evolution on Earth has an arm on their head. If there was one, it is dead and that species did not proliferate further to evolve into other animals.

Besides christianity is the only religion that proved itself to be true in so many ways wheter you think so or not. The old testament stated jesus coming way before he was born.

Ask the Jews if Jesus fits the Old Testament description. I'm pretty sure they will give you a no, considering the Jews do not find Jesus as their savior. Besides, who's to say while writing the New Testament, they changed the story of Jesus to fit the context of the prophecy. Besides, there are no definate accounts of Jesus's life besides the Bible. Sure, there might be accounts that he was at a certain place at a certain time, but that doesn't prove anything beyond the fact he was a man who lived. How can you trust that the early church kept true, especially since it was a couple years after Jesus died that the religion actually stated he was the Son of God. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinity_of_Jesus#Controversies_concerning_those_w ho_deny_Christ.27s_divine_nature)

To not belive in God would mean that Jesus was just some random guy who wanted to be Gods son so went and got himself tortured for absolutly no reason. Besides of all the miralces and good deeds he done when he was on earth.

Jesus was a great moral leader. He belongs on the same list with people like Gandhi and Mother Teresa. How do you know Jesus actually performed these miracles besides a book telling you so? Did God or one of his messangers tell you this the truth, or has going to church indoctrinated you into believing it? How can you even trust the Bible as being true? What if the men who decided what books to put in the Bible only chose those books favoring their opinion about Jesus as God? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_sea_scrolls)

God didnt answer all the questions we have becuase why would he? God wants to see how loyal of a person you are and if you deserve to go to heaven or not. The only way he could do that would be to put us on a planet in the middle of no where. Even if you don't belive in God you should stilll be a good person overall. It's just a natural feeling of whats right and wrong.

What makes us so important to God that he'd put us on a rock floating in the middle of space to just test us? That seems like a very trivial test for God to waste his time with. And how do you know there is a heaven, because of the Bible? All religions have some form of heaven, and all dead religions had some form of it too. Why? It's not because there is actually heaven, it's because people want to believe that their life doesn't end in death.

If God proved himself to be real then there would have been no point to put us on this planet. He could have put us right in front of him.

Why? Why would God have no point to put us on the planet if He showed himself to us? That really doesn't make much sense.

[post-mortem]

now your comparing david blaine to jesus... wow. First of all david blaine is a magician that not once was tortured and nailed to a cross for everybody sins.

Really if you dont belive in God who are you trying persuade. I mean if im right I go to heaven, if you guys are right you get to just die. You dont win either way. lol.

[Yesbama]

An argument from faith is a very bad argument.

marry me.


post-mortem, this is not a flame whatsoever... but for my own personal knowledge how old are you? I feel that as you grow older, maybe read some books, hopefully go to college, you will begin to think about our world beyond what has been written by humans in a book that they said was the word of god.

Think of it this way. You yourself continue to admit, with each post, that you do not know the answers to the questions you seek. And neither does anyone on this forum. Christianity, the bible, and any other religion, attempt to answer these questions for you. Questions that people have been asking since the brain evolved to support cognitive thoughts. Religion was created by man to answer the questions that no man knew.

The intelligent people during those ancient times got together and formed the answers, wrote them down, and said they were the word of god. Who would question a king? Who would dare question a king during those times? People were not educated; free thinking wasn’t widespread, people took what was fed to them. It happens today; kids are fed beliefs from parents, teachers, ministers, and any other person of influence in their lives.

People eventually believed that the bible was the word of god and it provided the answers to most of their questions. Along with answering their questions about nature, providing hope in times of crisis, and giving reason to human behavior, the bible included unclear usages of language, enabling the text to be interpreted/misconstrued as needed, to further cast out any questioning of the integrity of its teachings. The bible also included some moral laws for the people to abide by (most likely borrowed ideas). The bible created (or borrowed) fear in the form of the "devil" to make people follow its laws. And the bible created (or borrowed) heaven and immortality to reward those who abided by its laws.

It's not that hard to think about what the bible is, fundamentally speaking.


David blane was posted as an example of how easily people are fooled. The poster was simply trying to point out to you that EVEN TODAY people think that guy can do what he says he does. So what do you think people would believe 2000+ years ago? I'm willing to bet a hell of a lot more wool could be pulled over peoples eyes two millennia ago.

The problem with the bible is that its only proof is itself. The only proof we have that Jesus was the divine son of god is the bible, a book that lacks credibility in itself. It's like L. Ron Hubbard writing a book about a religion, naming it scientology, saying its true, and the only proof he's got is the book he wrote about it. Wow sounds like some other religions we've all heard of? The only difference is that it sucks realizing that your beliefs might not be true after all and that Christianity is just as credible as Scientology.

[shades]

There is no proof that Jesus preached his own divinity and my guess is that he was just a great moral leader whose identity was utilized to unite the ancient world. It is easy to see how prolific speakers can convince people of very radical (think Hitler) or rediculous (think L. Ron Hubbard) ideas, so it's not hard to imagine that if Christ did claim he was the son of god it wouldn't be all that hard to get people to believe that, especially in a time with no global broadcasting and news traveled by word of mouth.

The argument that the conditions on earth being too perfect to simply be chance is countered by the vastness of space. If there really is more stars than grains of sand (even the Bible says this) then it isn't a stretch to think that by pure probability that one of those systems the conditions would be perfect.

Saying that humans are designed perfect is a flawed argument because in addition to all our inperfections (fragility, disease etc), we continue to change. If we were perfect then no changes would have taken place over history. From the time when the Bible was written, people have gotten smarter, taller and more physically attractive. If we were flawless then why have we changed so much over only a few thousand years?

[SenSai]

This thread has made me realize why I hate the word perfect. There is no such thing as something perfect. Perfection is an extreme concept that can never be obtained, because it is a paradox in it of itself. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfection_%28concept%29#Paradoxes_of_perfection) As for the creation of life on this planet - conditions were not perfect for creating life, they were just right for creating life.

/Sorry I'm so picky, I just really don't like the word perfect. I guess it's ok in a relative sense, but relatively speaking, I think it's been used too much in this thread and taken in the wrong sense.

[RogueCheddar]

I actually made a thread about perfection and creation with some good posts worth reading.

http://forums.thecatacombs.net/showthread.php?t=65090

Freeo also provided a link with lists of imperfections in species that one would hope an almighty creator wouldn't have overlooked.

http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:MaA-O-Z3xOAJ:www.freewebs.com/oolon/SMOGGM.htm+oolon+%22god%27s+greatest+mistakes%22&hl=en

[post-mortem]

ok lets change the topic lets say you guys are right.

I want some theroies about how we came to be and how humans where made an so forth. The evolution theory is just dumb imo so lets hear what you guys think happened overall. Becuase for all I know this is what you guys think: things blew up, shit happened and somehow creatures became on earth, and somehow formed humans one day.

[Kersk]

First of all david blaine is a magician that not once was tortured and nailed to a cross...You know, that's really not such a bad idea. Man that guy is annoying.

In all seriousness though, I had hoped my point wouldn't need further elaboration since time spent not talking about David Blaine is time well spent. Unfortunately, that appears not to be the case here, so let's get on with it. What I was trying to get at was that despite all the good moral deeds that Jesus may or may not have done, really the only thing that would prevent him from having been "just a random guy" are these accounts of divine miracles. I brought up David Blaine since I had hoped we could all agree that he is definitely just a random guy. However, I know that somewhere out there, there are people who actually believe he has some sort of supernatural powers or whatever. This is a guy living in our modern world where logic and reasoning are supposedly a fundamental part of our society, yet he is still able to convince people that he is really capable of these amazing feats.

Now, considering this, is it so outrageous to think that something similar could have happened in a time so long ago? Also, while David Blaine obviously has a personal goal as a magician to blatantly deceive people, it's still completely possible that Jesus honestly had no ulterior motives to deceive anyone and was simply just a straight-up guy. I mean think about it, we're not exactly talking about a breaking news event from CNN here. These accounts of the miracles come largely from people who wrote down "my Brother's-nephew's-best friend saw Jesus" stories, probably years after Jesus had already died in a time where accurate news reporting wasn't much of a concern. (...unlike today *cough*)

I think we've all been witness to how fast a rumor can spread and change. For example, imagine that you go to one end of a school yard and tell someone, "Hey, I heard Joe finally asked Stacy out on a date!" Ten minutes later on the other end of the school you'll hear people running around yelling "Guys! I just heard that Stacy is really a GUY and Joe got caught making out with him behind the PE building!"

It simply is ridiculous how fast something like this can get exaggerated or completely altered beyond recognition in just a few steps. Now imagine a topic that has been around for two millennia, is something alot of people actively want to believe in, and, more importantly, is something that they want other people to also believe in. In this vast chain of people between now and the time of the described events, is it so outside the realm of possibility that the story was changed or embelished? If anything, I would find it hard to believe that these accounts were not significantly corrupted after such a long period of time.

I think that's a pretty reasonable explanation for the origin of these divine miracle stories. Certainly, the fact that these miracles did, in fact, actually happen is still a possiblity. However, for the same reason that I don't think David Blaine is a miracle worker, when I compare the plausability of my theory against what is described in the Bible, the idea that these miracles could have acutally occured becomes virtually inconceivable to me. But, just as there are people out there who actually believe in David Blaine, there are obviously going to be people that disagree with me. And, in this case, there happen to be quite a few.




Really if you dont belive in God who are you trying persuade. I mean if im right I go to heaven, if you guys are right you get to just die.

You dont win either way. lol.Well, first of all, you made a critical mistake that I need to fix:

I mean if im right we all go to heaven or hell, if you guys are right we all get to just die. I hope you can appreciate the huge difference between your version and my version.

Secondly, while this is more of a corollary to the first point, I wanted to examine something that is implied by the above mistake and your statement that I don't win either way. For the moment, let's assume you are right and God does exist exactly as described in the Bible. There is an implied judgment that you made - namely, that you are going to Heaven and we are not. Didn't you just say that if someone lives a good life, then they can get into Heaven even if they don't believe in God? So if God exists, why do you feel that I am automatically excluded from Heaven? I guess since I'm an atheist, you're unconsciously assuming that I must be evil and wicked. Gee, thanks. :( Or is it that you don't honestly believe deep-down that just any random good person can get into Heaven?

Thirdly, lets assume for the moment that what you said about not having to believe in God to get into Heaven is a valid property of your religion, (again, this is an idea that I think alot of Christians would find offensive), then, even still, this would hardly increase either of our chances of getting into Heaven. While a number of modern religions seem to share very similar concepts of morality, I honestly can't think of any that openly grant access to their version of Heaven by just being a "good" person without a corresponding life of total devotion to that one specific religion. But, just for the sake of argument, let's assume that there are some and that Christianity is one of them. If you honestly feel that anyone can get into Christianity's version of Heaven by just being a good person, wouldn't it actually be in your best interest to not be a Christian at all? If you live a good life, aren't you automatically going to be allowed into Christianity's Heaven regardless, in addition to all the other religions that are open to generic "good" people? So, if you change to a religion that shares the same morality that you already have, but requires your full devotion to gain access to it's Heaven, wouldn't you actually be increasing your chances to enjoy infinite bliss? I'll ask you again, do you really believe that Christianity's Heaven is open to non-Christians?

Continuing on, since most religions demand "religi-monogamy" in order to get into their version of Heaven, how do we have any chance at all of choosing the correct religion? Think about it, in the time that Man has been around, how many religions have we invented? Thousands? Just because no one is around to practice a dead religion doesn't mean that it was incorrect. What if we are like the ancient Greeks and the "correct" religion hasn't even been created yet? For example, as silly as it sounds, what if Scientology is right? My grandparents died before it came around, I guess they're screwed just like all the people that died before Christianty came around. That makes tons of sense. Sigh.

So here's what it boils down to for me:

The statistical chances that I could even choose the correct religion to begin with is so low, that when combined with the question of whether God/Heaven/etc even exists or not, that it logically seems unworthy of giving up a life of freedom for since the only difference in probability that I'm going to miss out on eternal bliss compared to a religious person is 1 / (total # of religions) and, if there really are any "open" religions for good people, I have the possibility of getting a few freebie chances anyway.

Furthermore, it is an undeniable fact that religion has been the reason for countless deaths of "good" people in the history of Man, and it continues to be a source of deaths of good people even today. In my opinion, any situation where you have good people killing good people is pretty terrible, but the idea that this occurs over minor differences between religions is simply tragic. I mean honestly... look at all the innocent people that have died in Israel, and I don't just mean in modern history. Really, if any issue is going to finally spark WW3, my money is on some sort of fundamentally religious divide combined with one fanatic that manages to get his hands on a nuke.

PS - I have some bad news for you guys. I just created the Kersk religion. I guess that means that I just lowered everyone's chances of getting into Heaven. Even worse, minutes after it was created, us Kerskians had severe differences of opinion and we split into a dozen mutually exclusive denominations. I guess I, er...*ahem* we, lowered everyone's chances again! Damnit, I'm really sorry about that! :( To make up for it we all decided to abandon our faith. Unfortunately, the damage to everyone's likelihood of entering Heaven has already been done. Even worse, assuming none of you guys believe in Kerskianity, there is now the somewhat hilarious remote possibility that Heaven will exist with zero people in it. Hmm!

[post-mortem]

so everything just always was? For what reason and how?

Instead of fighting about how Christianity can be wrong I want to know what you believe in. How did everything come to be? or let me re-prahse that, how did everything always be? Im not talking about Earth and humans. Im talking about the universe, and life itself. How is life, life if there is nothing to create it?

[Kersk]

ok lets change the topic lets say you guys are right.

I want some theroies about how we came to be and how humans where made an so forth. The evolution theory is just dumb imo so lets hear what you guys think happened overall. Becuase for all I know this is what you guys think: things blew up, shit happened and somehow creatures became on earth, and somehow formed humans one day....
I want to know what you believe in. How did everything come to be?
...Well, even though you have conclusively shown that evolution did not occur because it is clearly "dumb", I personally feel that it gives a very reasonable and natural explanation of life on Earth. As I stated before in a post that you seemed to have missed, the main thing I have no explanation for is how space and matter came to be, but I don't see how that is really any different than a religious person being unable to answer how God came to be. Actually, the only difference that I can think of is that a scientist, while having no answer for that question, is still trying to find a solution, whereas a religious person has altogether given up on answering their own similar problem, instead opting to just turn towards faith.

[mag]

My belief is as follows: There is a God, One God, the creator of the universe and the life within it. There is also a spirtual world, beyond reach while being alive. I do not believe a virgin gave birth to God's child. I also believe in Darwin's theory of evolution, and Karma. I am also young, so in the coming years I'd like to study the books of religions that I consider legitmate and come to my own conclusion as to which God I believe in. Which is why I call myself Agnostic.

[SenSai]

so everything just always was? For what reason and how?

Instead of fighting about how Christianity can be wrong I want to know what you believe in. How did everything come to be? or let me re-prahse that, how did everything always be? Im not talking about Earth and humans. Im talking about the universe, and life itself. How is life, life if there is nothing to create it?


Go try and researching these topics. I'm not trying to be a dick when I say this, but actually go out and google or wiki topics like "evolution" and "big bang theory." May I also suggest reading stuff by Michio Kaku and Brian Greene for further insight in prominent theories about the creation of the universe (the books Hyperspace Theory (Kaku), The Elegant Universe (Greene), and Fabric of the Cosmos (Greene) can be found at your local bookstore).

I personally don't see evolution as a crock of shit, I believe it to be how we were created. You find evolution in the world right now. How do you explain the different animals on islands that share similar genomic sequences with their mainland counterparts (research Galapagos Islands). But the easiest way to see evolution is look at all the super-bacteria we are creating. Notice how penicillin doesn't work against all those previous bacterial infections? Why? Because not all the bacteria died when medicine was used. The ones that did not die went on to live and reproduce, and their offspring became less prone to the medicines and so on. This didn't happen over night, it took about 19 years until the first case of bacterial resistance to penicillin was found. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillin#Resistance)

When placed in different environments (or new things brought into the environment), living things will try to survive, adapt to its new surroundings. Not all living things can adapt, leaving less to carry on. But if a couple of those organisms can survive and reproduce, their offspring learn to adapt to the environment, thus evolving more. And so as time beats on and the conditions are right, organisms evolve. Think of evolution as your strive for perfection, it's how life progresses. And life makes many mistakes and organisms die because of it. But the organisms that can adapt, go on, and produce offspring with the abilities to adapt as well. This is the strive for perfection, this is the march of progress. Evolve or die.


/PS. I highly suggest you read scientific sources about scientific theories. You need to look at the other side of the spectrum, the one without religious influence post-mortem. Don't take the words that I type or anyone else types on these boards as the facts to go on...because we're no experts in these areas, but we are knowledgeable of them. If you search, you'll find answers to questions - and they are not all that hard to find. Just remember to keep an open mind and don't let your religious bias get in your way of at least trying to understand (but not necessarily accept) the other side of things.

[Terminotaur]

I want some theroies about how we came to be and how humans where made an so forth. The evolution theory is just dumb imo so lets hear what you guys think happened overall. Becuase for all I know this is what you guys think: things blew up, shit happened and somehow creatures became on earth, and somehow formed humans one day.
You shouldn't obfuscate the term evolution. Evolution is just a theory regarding the mechanics of speciation. Evolution definitely does not make a claim on the origin of life and definitely does not make a claim on the origin of the universe. Disregarding metaphysical claims that this might not be reality, there is very solid and incontrovertible evidence that speciation occurs naturally and artificially through the mutations of genes and environmental factors as predicted by the theory of evolution. The theory of evolution does make certain implications regarding the origin of humans based on archaegological findings.

The most logical belief regarding the origin or nature of existence is agnosticism, a claim of ignorance.

[mag]

...Hyperspace Theory (Kaku), The Elegant Universe (Greene), and Fabric of the Cosmos (Greene)...

I'd like to get my hands on these, any suggestion on the best one to start out with?

[SenSai]

My belief is as follows: There is a God, One God, the creator of the universe and the life within it. There is also a spirtual world, beyond reach while being alive. I do not believe a virgin gave birth to God's child. I also believe in Darwin's theory of evolution, and Karma. I am also young, so in the coming years I'd like to study the books of religions that I consider legitmate and come to my own conclusion as to which God I believe in. Which is why I call myself Agnostic.

God will not be found in the religious books of man, because man wrote these books to explain things they do not understand. As time marches on and reason dawns on mankind, the God of old will perish. If you believed God created everything, then look at his creations to find him. You can read the books, but how can books that do not deal with the truth and reality of creation tell you about these subjects.

Whether you believe in God or not, remember this. To make reason you have to have belief. To make beliefs, you have to have reason. Up until recently, religion was the only thing offered, and it only gave you belief without reason (logical sense). Now that the Age of Reason has dawned, more and more people are now trying to find new beliefs. I have reason to believe that one day, both logic and faith will meet up.

[mag]

Like I said, before I conclude anything I'd like to spend many years reading not only holy books, but theoretical books like the ones listed above. Science and God? What if God is simply the greatest scientest of them all. I want to look over several sources and weed out what I believe is unreasonable, and absorb what the author is trying to point out. Being in a conservative Christian family, it's hard to do right now.

[SenSai]

I'd like to get my hands on these, any suggestion on the best one to start out with?

It really depends. Kaku's Hyperspace deals with how the four forces of nature (gravitation, electromagnetic, strong nuc, weak nuc) are all made simplier with higher dimensions. It also deals with string/M theory, explores the fun possibilites of wormholes, alternate realities, and the fate of the universe.

In Greene's Universe, string theory is explained, but its a bit easier to stomach. He first starts talking about the dawn of classical physics and how it lead to what we have today with the probablistic work of particle physics (quantum mechanics) and the science of the macroscopic scale (Relativity). He then goes on to explain the 'Holy Grail' of science, the unification of Relativity and Quantum Mechanics and how string theory can possibly be the theory to unify both sides of the spectrum.

In Greene's follow-up book, The Fabric of the Cosmos, space and time, or space-time is discussed in depth. Like his first book, he goes through the history (evolution) of physics concepts on time and space. He then talks about the paradoxes of time and to the possibility of why we all get older and not younger (because unlike everything else in the universe, time is asymmetrical). At the end, he goes back and explores new ideas brought about in advances in string theory (like teleportation, holographic principle, etc.), and then goes on and talks about wormholes and other things like Kaku did.

I would suggest all three books. If you're a non-physics savvy kind of guy, go for Greene's two books first, because he takes a very non-technical approach (but you will have to put your mind to the grinder to visualize some of the concepts). If you're already prone for scientific concepts, Kaku is a good place to start out. In the end, both men present some of the same topics, but they also go on and explain things in other areas that the other hasn't covered.

[post-mortem]

http://www.carm.org/questions/god_origin.htm

This is an answer to what God is. It may not be the right answer according to everyone on this forum but atleast its an answer, unlike the answers I see of where space and life came from without a God according to you guys.

[FluxCapacitor]

So your answer is that God always was basically. That's all that says. Is that God has always been there. That doesnt explain any origin. I can do that too. SPace has always been there, the universe is beyond the chart because it is the chart.

[SenSai]

http://www.carm.org/questions/god_origin.htm

This is an answer to what God is. It may not be the right answer according to everyone on this forum but atleast its an answer, unlike the answers I see of where space and life came from without a God according to you guys.

Uncyclopedia has a pretty good answer for God as well. (http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/God) Once again, you seem to be looking for answers, but you're not going outside your zones of comfort to find them. You found an answer that you want, but not particularly the best answer there is. If you really want to find information, you can't go in having any preconceived notions as to what you think things should be. Nothing is sacred, question everything. It's the only way to make an honest and open decision about anything.

[Kersk]

Since God has no beginning or end, He has no beginning.Deep. Do you know what else doesn't have a beginning or an end?

Something that never existed at all.

Have you ever *seriously* considered that possibility?

Nothing is sacred, question everything. It's the only way to make an honest and open decision about anything.

[-Serialchilla-]

Scientists have also just recently discovered a beetle that shoots flames out of his back side!

I can do that too, just give me a lighter. Where is this beetle, anyways? I want to put firecrackers near its ass and just wait for the show to begin.

Or, judging by all the close calls with asteroids that we've been having lately, maybe God just throws like a girl.

Better start wearing a helmet. God might have to prove a point now :D

[sparkz]

Instead of fighting about how Christianity can be wrong I want to know what you believe in. How did everything come to be? or let me re-prahse that, how did everything always be? Im not talking about Earth and humans. Im talking about the universe, and life itself. How is life, life if there is nothing to create it?


The formation of Earth is actually a pretty simple idea. The shit in the cosmos is constantly exploding and melting and then sticking together again, and it's probably a pretty safe bet that after awhile, some shit in our neighborhood exploded, and after a long enough time, enough chunks of stuff knocked into eachother and made a big rock.

After awhile, this rock started to attract all kinds of other wet rocks and frozen comets, and after these things kept smashing into the planets surface, eventually puddles formed. They got bigger. Then came clouds and with clouds came weather, and once it started raining all kinds of nasty little shit starting growing everywhere. Theres a good chance we either are or are a byproduct of all of this nasty shit.

And heres something that may blow your mind. Whos saying all of this shit was even created in the first place? Maybe the universe has simply always been here. I'm not claiming that's the case, but it's no less plausible than some kind of God creating everything. And even if there is a God behind all of this, where did he come from?

[Flowside]

(Please keep in mind I'm speaking to no one in particular, but rather the Creationist movement as a whole)

This will be easy.

1. The Earth is round.
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth. (Isaiah 40:22)

A circle does not denote a sphere. A circle is a representation of a 2-dimensional shape and doesn't translate necessarily to 3-d. This is a weak argument as many of the early projections of the Earth's shape was a circular disc that was indeed flat.

2. The Earth hangs in the balance of space.
"He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing." (Job 26:7)

A classic example of pick-and-choose bullshit from Christian "scientists." Nevermind the fact that Job 26:9 states "9 He covers the face of the full moon, spreading his clouds over it." (which makes no sense as there are no clouds that encircle the moon). A popular argument is that the lines that don't make sense in modern day scientific literature is deemed allegory, while the ones that coincidentally fit are absolute. If you are to believe the Bible, then everything in it must be taken as fact, not both fact and parable.

3. There are more stars than there are grains of sand on the entire earth.
"I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore." (Genesis 22:17)

This line does not even state that there are more stars in the sky than the sand on the seashore, in fact, the comparison is between the descendants to stars and sand, but there is absolutely no comparison between stars and sand! Do you want to argue that there are more people than grains of sand in the world? How they even drew that original conclusion is completely mystifying.

4. There are underwater mountain ranges.
"The engulfing waters threatened me, the deep surrounded me; seaweed was wrapped around my head. To the roots of the mountains I sank down..." (Jonah 2:5,6)

Oh good lord (no pun intended). Another example of a failure to read. Roots of mountains refers to the roots of above ground mountains. Roots equal below, and it is much more plausible that it is referring to "roots" of continental mountains as "sank" denotes through water. If he were sinking, it would be much more definitive that he encounter the "leaf" or "stem" of an underwater mountain range. Once again, another attempt to pick an ambiguous phrase and turn it into an absolute.

5. Giving the land a rest in order to replenish the nutrients. (Leviticus 25:1-5)

I love Leviticus. Let's take a look at the "science" within Leviticus. "6 The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you. 7 And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you." (Lev. 11:6-8) This states that any part of a dead pig or rabbit are unclean. Someone call the CDC and have them recall every football ever manufactured! The rest of this chapter goes on about some craziness about how fish and insects will also make you "unclean." The funny thing is, the uncleanliness lasts until evening, on the dot, every single time. Yet another classic example of picking and choosing things to suit a purpose. Also, "giving land rest" is no longer a cure for replenishing soil nutrients. In fact, a better way to do this is to introduce dead and decaying materials to be broken down into carbon and nitrogen compounds. Nowdays, soils are much richer if they are treated with manure and detritus than if you let them sit there (hey you said it yourself). This hardly goes along with giving land rest. Treating soil with maure is to "work on it." Also, with increasing desertification of the Gobi, "giving land rest" doesn't work at all. So much for that "bible science."

Time for a break.

Alright, here we go again.

6. After going to the bathroom, to cover it up with dirt so that flies don't spread disease.
"Designate a place outside the camp where you can go to relieve yourself. As part of your equipment have something to dig with, and when you relieve yourself, dig a hole and cover up your excrement. For the Lord your God moves about in your camp to protect you..." (Deuteronomy 23:12-14)"

There's 2 things about this one. First off, it says absolutely NOTHING about disease or flies. In fact, neither gets mentioned. Second, let's finish the rest of Deut. 23:14: "Your camp must be holy, so that he will not see among you anything indecent and turn away from you." Oh! So THAT'S why God wants us to cover it up, because feces is indecent to him and he doesn't want to see it! You CAN'T take scripture out of context and fit it to a meaning that you want! Are we starting to understand a theme here?!

[i]7. Destroying clay pots after use because of bacteria from blood getting into the cracks, etc.
"The clay pot the meat is cooked in must be broken; but if it is cooked in a bronze pot, the pot is to be scoured and rinsed with water." (Leviticus 6:28)[/b]

Incredible. A bunch of pseudoscience presumed to be fact. When you COOK something, you are eliminating bacteria from the food, there is no difference between heating bacteria in food and heating bacteria in the cracks of clay. If you heat clay, bacteria dies. Once again, the passage makes no mention of bacteria or even blood of an animal. It is much more likely that this passage referred to meat aromas. Since clay is porous, it retains particles from cooked food that will find its way back into the next meal you decide to cook. Washing out a bronze pot will ensure that you don't mix parts of your last meal with parts of the next. If you read before it, Levit