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EverythingZen
July 5th, 2006, 02:46 AM
Dave Lindorff | July 4 2006 (http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff07032006.html)

Largely missed in all the coverage of the Supreme Court's landmark ruling in the Hamdan v. Rumsfeld case was the establishment by the court majority that all Bush administration claims to the contrary, the Geneva Convention rules regarding captured prisoners apply to the captives taken not only in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but in the so-called War on Terror.

What has been largely missed is the clear point that the Supreme Court has now declared that for the past five years, Bush and his gang of war-mongers, including Vice President Dick Cheney, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of State and former National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, former Attorney General Donald Rumsfeld and current Attorney General and former White House Chief Counsel Alberto Gonzales, and many others in the administration, have been guilty of violating the Third Convention on treatment of prisoners of war. They are also, therefore, in violation of federal law, which back in 1996 adopted that convention as part of the U.S. criminal code.

In other words, the whole top administration, from Commander in Chief George W. Bush on down, is guilty of war crimes. The punishment for committing war crimes ranges from a lengthy jail sentence to, in the event the crimes in question caused the death of any prisoners being held, to death. And there have been many deaths among those who have been held and tortured on orders of the administration-most recently the three suicides at Guantanamo, which included on man who had only three days earlier been targeted for release (but who never learned this because government's secrecy and tight security prevented his attorneys at the Center for Constitutional Rights from getting the news to him).

Interestingly, Gonzales actually warned Bush about this possibility. In a memo to the president, written on January 25, 2002 when he was still White House counsel, Gonzales warned prophetically that the U.S. adoption of the Third Geneva Convention as a part of the U.S. criminal code in 1996 made violation of the convention a "war crime," which he said was defined as "any grave breach" of the Third Convention such as "outrages against personal dignity." He noted that this law applied whether or not a detained person qualified for POW status, and added that punishment for violation of the law "include the death penalty." But then he went on to say Bush could "substantially reduce" his risk of domestic criminal prosecution under the War Crimes Act by making a presidential determination that the Third Geneva Convention "does not apply to al Qaeda and the Taliban."

Clearly, Gonzales here was behaving like a mob lawyer, not like an honest counselor. He was telling the president not what was right and legal, but how to dodge prosecution.

In Bush's case, this crime calls for his impeachment, and for his subsequent prosecution as a war criminal. In the case of his subordinates and abettors, it calls for criminal indictments.

Naturally, we cannot expect to see indictments issue from the Attorney General's Office, particularly given Gonzales' own complicity and personal culpability on the war crimes charge. Conceivably, I suppose, some career prosecutor like Patrick Fitzgerald, who has been given wide authority in his special counsel role, could bring charges, though this seems highly unlikely.

Charges could also be brought by another country whose laws permit such extraterritoriality: Germany or Spain for example.

Meanwhile, we who value America's once elevated standing in the world as a supporter and author of the Geneva Conventions, should begin a campaign to press the Congress to consider a bill of impeachment against Bush for war crimes.

There are, as Barbara Olshansky and I explain in our new book The Case for Impeachment (which includes a copy of the above Gonzales memo in an appendix), many important reasons to impeach the president, but surely the deliberate policy of involving the military in the commission of war crimes-torture, kidnapping, denial of access to some process of challenge the justice of their detention-is among the worst of all of those crimes against the Constitution.

The blood is on Bush's hands, and the hands of his henchmen, but unless we the people act, and unless the Congress acts, to call them to account, it will ultimately be on all of our hands.


and to think, the last president lied about getting his dick sucked.....

MightyCawdoR
July 5th, 2006, 05:53 AM
I'm not to sure what you are smoking but please do us a favor and quit smoking it. If what this one guy says is true then why isn't it being lambasted across all the news channels? Don't believe everything you read on the internet, just because someone wrote it and posted it on a web page doesn't make it true.

ass*assassin
July 5th, 2006, 10:15 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^

good christ.. everyone is soooooo trying to dig up crap, that anyone on the internet that posts up anything, is immediately the holy saviour of the country, the world and everything that is right in the world..

get this straight... 80% of everything is bullshit.. especially on the internet. If you truly believe this shit that you posted above, then YOU really need some serious help son.

SenSai
July 5th, 2006, 10:36 AM
Well, I may not like what goes down at Gitmo, and I may not like how we've handled some prisoners...I'm calling shenanigans on this opinion piece by some internet guy. It seems that he makes these claims to lure you into buying his new book rather than pointing out things and backing them up with references. "LOL! Bush is a war criminal and here's why I think that but I won't give you the actual facts until you come buy my new book."

Bookrat
July 5th, 2006, 11:24 AM
I agree that these statements seem a tad over-the-top, but consider for a moment: if the situations were different, and it were several hundred American/European citizens (or soldiers even, if you prefer) being held in East Flyspeckistan for five years, do you not think that there would be an uproar about the 'war crimes' and Geneva Convention abuses being committed by that country?

One of the differences here is that the country doing it is the biggest kid on the block, with a ton of muscle in many arenas (military, economic, diplomatic).

Anyway, for a pretty balanced view of the Supreme Court judgement by an outside observer, there's a good in-depth piece on the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) website: The Gitmo decision: A judicial rebuke for George W. Bush but that's all (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/realitycheck/20060630sheppard.html).

Terminotaur
July 5th, 2006, 12:57 PM
Give fair trials to the people in Guantanamo? IS THE SCOTUS RETARDED?! The president shouldn't have to give fair trials to people if he doesn't want to.

ass*assassin
July 5th, 2006, 01:17 PM
i have no problems with speedy and fair trials.. if you read some of my other posts, you would realize that i am all for them in this case...

(in a southern drawl)....

and, once we find the sumbitches quilty as hell, then we string 'em up high at the nearest tree!!!! j/k :)

Sutterkane
July 5th, 2006, 01:27 PM
this thread is fucking hillarious.

nice job finding an unbiased source.

plus posting what the canadian broadcasting company interprets out of an american document.

Bookrat
July 5th, 2006, 01:37 PM
... plus posting what the canadian broadcasting company interprets out of an american document.
Yes, far better to leave it to the President to interpret, since he is The Decider and obviously knows better than anyone else what the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Geneva Convention all say.

Oh wait...

Anyway, just out of curiosity, did you a) read the CBC article, and/or b) find fault with anything said within? Or were you just engaging in a gratuitous slam against anyone who ain't a 'Mercan daring to have an opinion on something going on in the USA?

SenSai
July 5th, 2006, 02:09 PM
You probably wouldn't have heard about it on the news, but I think maybe things like this caused SCOTUS to make the ruling against military tribunals. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo/story/0,,1809981,00.html?gusrc=rss) And it wasn't only the Guardian that did this, I believe they got the original information from the Boston Globe. It's things like this that makes me skeptical of military tribunals, especially since a news agency could find the people that could get a detainee out of Gitmo (I think the article states that one of the people referenced by the prisoner is working for the Afghan president, and I'm sure the US has tabs on who those people are).


/Got the article from fark.com
//That's where I go for all my political discussions because its more lively than these boards
///It's also where I got my addiction to slashies

ass*assassin
July 5th, 2006, 02:32 PM
on a serious note:

I am FOR swift and speedy trials of the guys in gitmo.. If we are to set a higher-standard for those outside our country, then we need to abide by the same rules.. If we cannot come up with sufficient evidence to hold and prosecute, then they Must be let free..

it's called 'due process' under our system. I am not sure these guys can be called enemy combatants or not, some i am sure are just innocent civilians caught up in the whole thing.. and, there are many in there that i am sure are guilty as hell, and need to be put away for a long time..

we need to try them, or let 'em go..

now, in regards to our canadian bretheren.. our system is OUR system. like it or not.. it is OURs.. not yours. We try not to interfere in your matters, don't badmouth ours..

you guys got enough trouble with quebec trying to seceed, your major beer company (Molson) bought out by south africans, your game being hijacked by the russians and euros, and the polar bears are dying of heat prostration.. go out and buy the bears some freezers, eh? buy back your own beer label and nationalize it, and tell the russians and euros to play in europe, where they belong.. hoseheads... oh, wait.. that's us americans telling you what to do, and we know how much YOU guys hate that..

it's like a white sox fan telling us cubs fans that we suck.. and we do.. but that ain't the issue.. we can tell each other we suck, but YOU can't.. :)

americans secret society rule #1024 part b..

AntioK
July 5th, 2006, 05:19 PM
South Africans own miller too ;(

Luckily im a lager and bud drinker though, fuck south africa.

Bookrat
July 5th, 2006, 06:06 PM
now, in regards to our canadian bretheren.. our system is OUR system. like it or not.. it is OURs.. not yours. We try not to interfere in your matters, don't badmouth ours..
ass*, I'll ask you the same question: did you actually read the article? Unless you have a very different definition of what 'badmouth' means than I do, I'm guessing not.

This was not a Canadian dumping on Americans: this was a fair and reasonable analysis (IMHO) of the SCOTUS decision, and what it meant -- or, more accurately, did not mean -- as far as Bush's behaviour and 'business as usual'.

(And as for 'not interfering' ... aer you implying that it would be okay for an Iraqi or Afghani to comment on the SCOTUS decision, but not a Canadian? After all, can't be much argument that the US is 'interfering' over there, regardless of your stance on whether that's a good thing or bad thing.)

Obscure
July 5th, 2006, 06:53 PM
The author needs to decrease his intake of recreational chemicals.

agi|e
July 13th, 2006, 11:03 AM
This is bad (violation of the Third Convention) but is really just a red herring or distraction compared to the real war crime of starting a war and attacking a sovereign country based on lies that the US was in danger from WMDs. If you are going after them for war crimes then go after them for the real deal.

Stayne
July 13th, 2006, 11:45 AM
And agile cuts to the chase. props.

To the died-to-the-wool conservatives here:
To say that something is hogwash simply because it was published online or in another country is proof that you have indeed fallen for the FOX News/Rush Limbaugh/Sean Hannitty/Bush Administration horse shit full on. Thier main goal is to discredit all sources and muddy the water as much as possible. They don't deny allegations against themselves, they just start making different claims that confuse the issue and bring any accuser's reputation into question. Or, they just bring up other issues (gay marriage, etc.) to fill the plate with thier own talking points.

It amazes me how blind many americans have become.

Now, I understand that left-wing bloggers are biased and extremist in thier writings. So are right-winger, like Drudge, but in the other direction. That doesn't mean that there is no truth to what they are saying. It just means that the reader has to find the facts amongst the emotion-filled opinion.

sc`
July 13th, 2006, 12:17 PM
I agree that these statements seem a tad over-the-top, but consider for a moment: if the situations were different, and it were several hundred American/European citizens (or soldiers even, if you prefer) being held in East Flyspeckistan for five years, do you not think that there would be an uproar about the 'war crimes' and Geneva Convention abuses being committed by that country?

One of the differences here is that the country doing it is the biggest kid on the block, with a ton of muscle in many arenas (military, economic, diplomatic).
Another difference might possibly be the fact that our citizens/soldiers don't blow up buildings and kill hundreds at bus stops. Just maybe.

Bookrat
July 13th, 2006, 02:35 PM
Another difference might possibly be the fact that our citizens/soldiers don't blow up buildings and kill hundreds at bus stops.
You have watched the news lately... like, say, the last three years, right? Because when I do, I've seen soldiers wearing USAian colours blowing things up at a prodigious rate! I've also learned of quite a few accounts of dozens/scores (if, admittedly, not hundreds at a time) being killed because they got in the way (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/02/iraq/main1677241.shtml), or they happened to be driving a bus over a bridge (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2881119.stm), or a bomb went off course (http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/01/05/iraq.target/index.html), or even just because someone just FUBARed and/or ignored orders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan_friendly_fire_incident). The fact that they are dying in dribs and drabs rather than all at once doesn't make them any less dead -- or any less innocent -- than the people who died in the WTC.

But that's not the point I was trying to make. All I was saying was, pretty much, the same thing that was said in the article SenSai referenced (http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo/story/0,,1809981,00.html?gusrc=rss):
Taj Muhammad Wardak, a former governor of Paktiya. "You can investigate these people here. There is no need to send them to Guantánamo,"

USA (in the form of George W. Bush) withdrew from a treaty to establish an International Criminal Court because, "it fears that soldiers and diplomats could be brought before the court which will hear cases of war crimes and crimes against humanity" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1970312.stm). (Note that it had already signed this treaty under the previous administration, so Bush had to 'un-sign' it.) Contrast that to the attitude demonstrated by the very existence of Guantanamo, and you get a very clear double standard; We're good enough to judge you, but you're not good enough to judge us.

Like I said; if the situations were reversed -- if it were East Flyspeckistan that held several hundred USAians for years without fair and reasonable trials, do you think that the USA would (should) simply tolerate it? It's just a lot harder to do anything about it when the entity contravening societal/legal mores is also the one with huge socio-economic/militaristic... sort of why the world can't really seem to 'force' China to clean up its act on human rights abuses either. Doesn't mean they aren't abuses... just means that the 800-pound gorilla is big enough to sit wherever it wants to.

If you believe that 'might makes right', then I guess that's okay. Me, I believe in a few things other than that.

Obscure
July 13th, 2006, 05:00 PM
We put our soldiers who have committed war crimes on trial and for that reason we do not need an international court. We police ourselves. Other nations do not or will not.

The author of that article has such a weak grasp on the legal system of this country let alone the politics of it that it's almost laughable. But hey, whatever sells books.