Jesus Camp

[VeeKaChu]

http://www.apple.com/trailers/magnolia/jesuscamp/trailer/

Discuss.

[Zogo]

charismatics are annoying.

http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/flvs/Becky2.flv

http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/flvs/Tory1.flv

[Cyberdemon]

We should start a tally of shitty threads with random links and some variant of "discuss". For science.

[VeeKaChu]

We should start a tally of shitty threads with random links and some variant of "discuss". For science.
Yes, we'll put it right under the "pointless, cynical off-topic replies" tally.

For someone who's posted several windy, rambling and what are- in my opinion- pseudo-intellectual diatribes against mankind's apathy to your particular way of "right-thinking" (and if that wasn't you, then I apologize in advance), that response is really kind of shocking in its small-mindedness.

The link is hardly random; I say "discuss", because I don't wish to color the discourse towards one response or the other. I want opinions and subsequent "discussion" on the subject matter in the link.

[Kartikeya-OD]

I say "discuss", because I don't wish to color the discourse towards one response or the other. I want opinions and subsequent "discussion" on the subject matter in the link.

No you don't.

[FireWall]

For someone who's posted several windy, rambling and what are- in my opinion- pseudo-intellectual diatribes against mankind's apathy to your particular way of "right-thinking" (and if that wasn't you, then I apologize in advance), that response is really kind of shocking in its small-mindedness.

You're probably thinking of [CS]-OmNiFraG.

[sparkz]

No you don't.

Get out of my thread.

That said, 55% of those kids will just develop 'preacher's son' syndrome and end up either leaving their church or becoming non-religious by the time they're 18.

It's only a matter of time before someone suicide-bombs an abortion clinic. I really love the 'how many of you would give your lives for Jesus" line that was nicely hidden in the background of one of the scenes.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm fairly green when it comes to any kind of religious education, but I can't see this kind of thing being the way Jesus would have wanted his ship to be run. It just seems so... cultish. Kids talking about 'wanting more out of life' at 5 years old? I wonder how many times they heard their parents say that to them before it stuck. Children don't want the meaning of life at 5, they want Legos.

[Sinmanc]

Get out of my thread.

That said, 55% of those kids will just develop 'preacher's son' syndrome and end up either leaving their church or becoming non-religious by the time they're 18.

It's only a matter of time before someone suicide-bombs an abortion clinic. I really love the 'how many of you would give your lives for Jesus" line that was nicely hidden in the background of one of the scenes.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm fairly green when it comes to any kind of religious education, but I can't see this kind of thing being the way Jesus would have wanted his ship to be run. It just seems so... cultish. Kids talking about 'wanting more out of life' at 5 years old? I wonder how many times they heard their parents say that to them before it stuck. Children don't want the meaning of life at 5, they want Legos.


well said.

[VeeKaChu]

You're probably thinking of [CS]-OmNiFraG.Oh yeah that's the guy. I probably owe HIM an aoplogy now!
But the point still stands, CyberDemon's response was un-called for. Just like Kart's below it. Nothing to add, but adding it nonetheless.

So Karti, tell me what I *do* want from this? What am I thinking? Or how about actually responding on-topic?

[Kartikeya-OD]

That said, 55% of those kids will just develop 'preacher's son' syndrome and end up either leaving their church or becoming non-religious by the time they're 18.

It's only a matter of time before someone suicide-bombs an abortion clinic. I really love the 'how many of you would give your lives for Jesus" line that was nicely hidden in the background of one of the scenes.

So let’s start this one. Where are you pulling your 55% from, oh that’s right your ass. I can do that too! Hey look I will say 95% will be out just fine.

I loved the correlation between an evangelical Christian and suicide bombing of an abortion clinic! Let's see there are 103 million self described evangelical’s out there (1). Out of that 103 million would be suicide bombers there were zero bombings against an abortion clinic in 2006 (2). Oh if you’d like to go back even further there wasn’t a bombing in 2005 either. More importantly that doesn’t even break down motive. That is just looking at the numbers. The most abortion clinic bombings in the last 20 years were in 1997 with 7 (which btw is still less the 1% of the total number of evangelicals in America). So let’s see, 103 million evangelicals and zero bombings since 2002. I wonder how long till they all strap on vest and start bombing clinics like a Muslim going to his numerous virgins in the sky. No matter what year you pick it’s less then 1%. What a great correlation indeed!

Do you really believe that the phrase “give your lives for Jesus” really means to go kill yourself in a bombing or other type of martyrdom? Of so I’m quite afraid you have Christianity and Islam confused then. So Captain of the ship, how would Jesus want his ship to be run?

(1.) Princeton Religion Research Report. 2002. "Describing Self as Born-Again or Evangelical," bar graph, online. See, http://www.wheaton.edu/isae/Gallup-Bar-graph.html.

(2.) National Abortion Federation. 2006. “Violence Statistics,” graph, online. See, http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/violence_statistics.html

[Cyberdemon]

It's not really "off-topic" with "nothing to add" because there's no topic and nothing to add to. It's like the 57th thread on the first page without even an attempt at making a point.

The link is hardly random; I say "discuss", because I don't wish to color the discourse towards one response or the other. I want opinions and subsequent "discussion" on the subject matter in the link.

I'm being pseudo-intellectual? :rolleyes:

[dys]

Cool, new catch phrases.

[-Dirby-]

I'll be the first to admit that I'm fairly green when it comes to any kind of religious education, but I can't see this kind of thing being the way Jesus would have wanted his ship to be run. It just seems so... cultish. Kids talking about 'wanting more out of life' at 5 years old? I wonder how many times they heard their parents say that to them before it stuck. Children don't want the meaning of life at 5, they want Legos.

I agree to an extent. Christians have misrepresented what it means to be "Christ-like" for centuries. Me being a Christian the biggest stereotype I encounter is being a crazy charismatic.
I dislike the term Christian because it is so loaded. I prefer to call myself "A Follower of Jesus Christ."

For me, the beginning of sharing my faith with people began by throwing out Christianity and embracing Christian spirituality, a nonpolitical mysterious system that can be experienced but not explained. Christianity, unlike Christian spirituality, was not a term that excited me. I couldn’t share something I wasn’t experiencing. And I wasn’t experiencing Christianity.

[sparkz]

So let’s start this one. Where are you pulling your 55% from, oh that’s right your ass. I can do that too! Hey look I will say 95% will be out just fine.


That's just a little number I came up with on my own based on people that I know. I know four people who's parents were clergy in some form of Christian church, kids that were living the full-blown lifestyle their entire lives. Out of the four, two are still church-attending Christians, one claims to be a Christian but admits he hasn't stepped foot inside a church or opened a bible in over 6 years, and the other 'still has some thinking to do about god.'

I loved the correlation between an evangelical Christian and suicide bombing of an abortion clinic! Let's see there are 103 million self described evangelical’s out there (1). Out of that 103 million would be suicide bombers there were zero bombings against an abortion clinic in 2006 (2). Oh if you’d like to go back even further ..... bla bla bla.

I think someone needs a bit of an introduction to sarcasm. My whole 'suicide bombing an abortion clinic' line wasn't a prediction. It's just the vibe I got when I saw the video where people are talking about giving their lives for Christ and chanting this means war with their hands above their heads. The family that I'm closest to in life outside of my own is a family of mostly evangelical Christians. Over the past few years I've had countless discussions that have lasted hours about God, Christianity, and faith. I've heard phrases like live your life for Jesus, live as Jesus, give your life to Jesus, but NEVER have I heard any of them say that they were willing to die for Jesus. That's a statement that only means one thing my friend, and that's what my comment reflected.

Kart, these people are the not the mainstream of Chrisitianty, hell, they're even out there for Evangelicals. They're programming their kids to fulfill their political motiviations at 4 and 5 years old. These kids are being tricked into making decisions about life and god before they even understand how the most basic things in life work. They're being manipulated by their parents.

It honestly burns me to see these little kids that some of these Pro-Life groups trot out at their rallies. They're using kids that probably couldn't tell you where babies even come from to get their political message across. It's not right.

[xero]

I'm definitely getting to the point where I'm openly hostile to any and all forms of religion. Stuff like this "Jesus Camp" are the reason why.

It does really weird and unhealthy shit to otherwise normal people.

I've been okay with how goofy this whole religion thing is for a long time, because I have this crazy belief that you can do whatever you want with your own life as long as it doesn't effect me. I'm not so sure anymore. How long before it really does bleed over fully into my tiny little sphere of existence?

I already pay taxes that support faith-based initiatives, "protecting marriage" via discrimination against a huge segment of the population of the country, AA (which has nothing to do with helping alcoholics and everything to do with God), abstinence programs [that don't work] in public school, teaching creationism in public school, federal subsidies for the religious-biggot-controlled Boy Scouts, federal aid in developing countrys that expressly prohibits advocating condom use to people with AIDS, and a litany of other crazy counter-productive shit I'm too lazy to list.

It is the basest of unethical behavior to breed people into this sort of religious mindset.

We're human beings. We're supposed to be better than this.

[VeeKaChu]

Cyberdemon- I had you confused with someone else on that 'pseudo-intellectual' point, as stated in my first response and subsequent post. But your initial response was still unecessary, small-minded, and OT- like your follow-up- no matter how you slice it.

Do you not understand the essence of debate? I'll explain- there's a topic. Then there's discussion from two point's of view, and counterpoint. Yet you seem to be saying that shouldn't be allowed. It bothers you.

You might notice that there is valid discussion occurring on the issue presented in the original post. So will you actually contribute? Or will you just mewl again that the post offends you somehow?


And thanks for actually chipping in Kart, I knew you could do it! ;)

[Kartikeya-OD]

That's just a little number I came up with on my own based on people that I know.

Don't make up a number for arguments sake please.

I think someone needs a bit of an introduction to sarcasm. My whole 'suicide bombing an abortion clinic' line wasn't a prediction.

It's only a matter of time before someone suicide-bombs an abortion clinic.

Sarcasm? I think not. Unless you have the most messed up idea of what sarcasm entails.

That's a statement that only means one thing my friend, and that's what my comment reflected.

This idea seems to be your biggest beef with the entire short clip which I can understand why. I've heard those words in every possible combination thousands of times. It doesn’t mean that one thing you refer to at all. It has nothing to do with violence or death. It’s the fact they are engaged in an active spiritual war (via prayer, fasting, quite time, bible study, youth groups, and local outreach).

Kart, these people are the not the mainstream of Chrisitianty, hell, they're even out there for Evangelicals. They're programming their kids to fulfill their political motiviations at 4 and 5 years old. These kids are being tricked into making decisions about life and god before they even understand how the most basic things in life work. They're being manipulated by their parents.


Uh, Evangelicals are rather mainstream in Christianity. Unless you’re including the Catholic Church. How in the world are you gathering that film is pushing the idea of parents trying to fulfill their political motivations at 4 years old. They can't even vote! Nor did I see any parents holding up cue cards to their kids knew how to answer a question. No one is tricking any kids.

I'm a parent and I would want to instill my values and beliefs into my family. That’s my right and duty as a father. I don't cross the line into violence or forcing my children to believe it. Neither do most Evangelicals or that video.

I would put out one point that I disliked about the video and its called emotionalism. I hate the fact that most churches use emotionalism in their presentations. I can walk into some of my past churches and literally predict who will raise their hands, or shake, or fall or whatever and when they will do it. Is it the spirit of God moving? Heck no, not when I can predict it’s every movement.

I wish the churches would rely on just the spirit of God and not lighting effects, touching songs, melo-drama services, or how majestic their building can look. How was that veek? ;)

Oh and veek, Cyber and mine’s point is that in order for a real debate to happen you need to put out a point first. Otherwise it just appears your looking for sympathizers in your own worldview.

[Zogo]

I loved the correlation between an evangelical Christian and suicide bombing of an abortion clinic!

suicide bombing no..bombing yes.

Is it the spirit of God moving? Heck no, not when I can predict it’s every movement.

you can predict the random rolling and jabber from these people before it happens?

[Kartikeya-OD]

Yeah that was a silly typo! I mainly used it because thats what sparkz first said. But either way the point is still valid. Thanks sidekick!

Oh and yes I can. It's quite hilarious. I can tell you who will do what when. Sort of goes hand in hand with how I feel about emotionalism.

[Zogo]

are you trying to defend bombings? because down there in the southern region that one bomber WAS being harbored in the woods by people who regarded him as a hero.

I can predict how ANY church service will be run within a certain extent..does that mean it's all manufactured?

[Kartikeya-OD]

I'm not defending the bombing of abortion clinics (never have and never will). I made the case that abortion clinic bombing was nearly non-existent and also acted out by a low number of evangelicals (below 1% in case you can't read).

I'm not talking about the order of any given service (such as how many songs, who speaks when, because that’s all predetermined). I'm speaking more of charismatic acting. Who raises there hands and when, who falls down and when, who shakes and when, when the lights go dim and songs are extended because everyone can feel the spirit moving in them, and other nonsense (emotionalism) like that. To answer the later part of your question, yes some of it is manufactured. The real spirit of God is replaced by emotionalism.

[tyson^cool]

I think we can all agree that fundamentalism is inherently dangerous and that it is interesting how western fundamentalist christians are starting to mirror middle-eastern fundamentalists in ideology. Thanks veek for sharing I would have never seen this trailer had you not posted it.

[puFf]

http://www.apple.com/trailers/magnolia/jesuscamp/trailer/

Discuss.

Got to start training them when they're young ;). Kid's are sponges especially in their first 5+ years.

The lady saying that the Palestinian kids are being taught to carry hand grenades stood out most to me and I'll assume she's telling that to her kids.

I get the impression (assumption) that many of those kids unfortunately will probably never get to play with, for example a Muslim kid, and learn that they probably just want to kick the soccer ball around in the field, catch frogs, laugh and giggle, etc., and play ... just like them.

That's my impression from that trailer anyway. Haven't seen the film.

Agree with you Katikeya on the whole emotionalism thing. Key tool in propoganda imho.

[FireWall]

I'm definitely getting to the point where I'm openly hostile to any and all forms of religion. Stuff like this "Jesus Camp" are the reason why.

It does really weird and unhealthy shit to otherwise normal people.

I've been okay with how goofy this whole religion thing is for a long time, because I have this crazy belief that you can do whatever you want with your own life as long as it doesn't effect me. I'm not so sure anymore. How long before it really does bleed over fully into my tiny little sphere of existence?

I already pay taxes that support faith-based initiatives, "protecting marriage" via discrimination against a huge segment of the population of the country, AA (which has nothing to do with helping alcoholics and everything to do with God), abstinence programs [that don't work] in public school, teaching creationism in public school, federal subsidies for the religious-biggot-controlled Boy Scouts, federal aid in developing countrys that expressly prohibits advocating condom use to people with AIDS, and a litany of other crazy counter-productive shit I'm too lazy to list.

It is the basest of unethical behavior to breed people into this sort of religious mindset.

We're human beings. We're supposed to be better than this.

Aside from your very last sentence, I thoroughly agree.

[Yesbama]

Got to start training them when they're young ;). Kid's are sponges especially in their first 5+ years.

The lady saying that the Palestinian kids are being taught to carry hand grenades stood out most to me and I'll assume she's telling that to her kids.

I get the impression (assumption) that many of those kids unfortunately will probably never get to play with, for example a Muslim kid, and learn that they probably just want to kick the soccer ball around in the field, catch frogs, laugh and giggle, etc., and play ... just like them.

That's my impression from that trailer anyway. Haven't seen the film.

Agree with you Katikeya on the whole emotionalism thing. Key tool in propoganda imho.


Bingo.

And kar, at age 5 those kids can't vote, you're right. However in 13 years they will be voting and voting hard to make sure that "their president" (and other state officials) has their fundamentalist ideals. Thats why this is such a big deal, because these fanatics can eventually indirectly affect my life in ways that I do not want them to. It won't be by showing me the love of jesus christ, it will be by keeping me or a family member from an organ transplant.

I'd like to point out that you should also not judge "emotionalism" and advocate evangelism. Emotionalism is a personal experience for those individuals, they aren't harming you in anyway. They might make you angry, in which case you should grasp ever harder onto your relationship with Jesus Christ so that you can overcome these sins. Judgement is like numero uno next to killing someone.
Evangelism on the other hand DOES affect other people. We have people on our campus yelling in bullhorns that we are all going to hell.. how is that at ALL encouraging. Instilling fear is not the way Jesus Christ would have taught his followers but rather by loving, accepting, and encouraging a personal relationship with himself.

Religion is so flawed it's hilarious and scary at the same time.

[|RES|arod]

You guys are absolutely crazy thinking the ideology of extreme radical islam is being mirrored in America through Christianity. Get out of your liberal batcaves every once in a while and actually meet some of these people. These people are harmless and that video takes words way out of context. This isn't even worth a debate right now.

[Zogo]

I'm not talking about the order of any given service (such as how many songs, who speaks when, because that’s all predetermined). I'm speaking more of charismatic acting. Who raises there hands and when, who falls down and when, who shakes and when, when the lights go dim and songs are extended because everyone can feel the spirit moving in them, and other nonsense (emotionalism) like that. To answer the later part of your question, yes some of it is manufactured. The real spirit of God is replaced by emotionalism.

predetermined = predictable. isn't it all "acting" within a sense? just like the charismatics.

[tyson^cool]

You guys are absolutely crazy thinking the ideology of extreme radical islam is being mirrored in America through Christianity. Get out of your liberal batcaves every once in a while and actually meet some of these people. These people are harmless and that video takes words way out of context. This isn't even worth a debate right now.

I dont live in a liberal batcave. Im sure the phases in the trailer may be out of context, but there are extremists christians (not shown in that trailer). Just like any religion, and as long as people hold beliefs like reliogion that they would die for (or fight for) its a dangerous situation. I guess its not worth a debate RIGHT now; maybe in a few years more when something happens.

[Scorcher]

You guys are absolutely crazy thinking the ideology of extreme radical islam is being mirrored in America through Christianity. Get out of your liberal batcaves every once in a while and actually meet some of these people. These people are harmless and that video takes words way out of context. This isn't even worth a debate right now.

They might not be violent, but if they are a significant force their voting power will continue to halt progress in this country.

[VeeKaChu]

You guys are absolutely crazy thinking the ideology of extreme radical islam is being mirrored in America through Christianity. Get out of your liberal batcaves every once in a while and actually meet some of these people. These people are harmless and that video takes words way out of context. This isn't even worth a debate right now.So people who have the aim to "take back America for Jesus" don't worry you at all? To even suggest that America should be "taken" for anyone or anything is seditious. They are not Americans in anything but their birth.

I am not in a 'liberal batcave', and the only thing I get from your childish name-calling is that you think 'liberals' are kooks, or in plainer terms, mentally ill, and therefore apparenty incapable of rational thought.

However your ill speech does not diminish me in the least. On the contrary, it says quite a lot about your qualities.

The problem of the anti-American fundamentalism these people espouse isn't a left/right or liberal/conservative issue, and your making it one is just another example of how rabid partisanship is also destroying this great nation.

[|RES|arod]

First of all, I didn't call anyone names in this thread and believe my behavior is far from childish. You are taking what they say completely out of context. "Winning over the united states for Christ" does not mean anything close to what you are implying. Anyone who says that means they want to try and convert non-christians. You are trying to make this into some Civil war situation in our country that is on the verge of erupting. This is why I called some of you nuts. If you have ever met evangelicals or talked with them for a bit, you would know how ludicrous this idea is. Sure there may be some people who are diehard extremists in Christianity, but it definitely is not being preached in public congregations in your city. The whole premise of this movie actually makes me sick.

[Kartikeya-OD]

And kar, at age 5 those kids can't vote, you're right. However in 13 years they will be voting and voting hard to make sure that "their president" (and other state officials) has their fundamentalist ideals. Thats why this is such a big deal, because these fanatics can eventually indirectly affect my life in ways that I do not want them to. It won't be by showing me the love of jesus christ, it will be by keeping me or a family member from an organ transplant.

So what? There is nothing wrong with a family instilling their values into their own children... Just because you don't agree with their values doesn't make it wrong.

I'd like to point out that you should also not judge "emotionalism" and advocate evangelism. Emotionalism is a personal experience for those individuals, they aren't harming you in anyway. They might make you angry, in which case you should grasp ever harder onto your relationship with Jesus Christ so that you can overcome these sins. Judgement is like numero uno next to killing someone.
Evangelism on the other hand DOES affect other people. We have people on our campus yelling in bullhorns that we are all going to hell.. how is that at ALL encouraging. Instilling fear is not the way Jesus Christ would have taught his followers but rather by loving, accepting, and encouraging a personal relationship with himself.

You have a puny perceptive of what is meant by emotionalism. Furthermore why are you bringing up evangelism when it wasn't even a previous point of mine or anybody’s? I fail to see how Evangelism affects you in such a direct way. Are they forcing you to listen? Are they holding you down in a dog pile and preventing you from getting that precious organ transplant? No.

I will agree that the fear put out by the type of evangelism you mention is rather ineffective and overused with minimal results. It’s not the type of evangelism I would recommend either.

[typeA]

Id kill some towelheads for Jesus, and that kid's rat tail is boss

[Sinmanc]

Id kill some towelheads for Jesus, and that kid's rat tail is boss

I dont think Jesus would want any killing in his name.

[-Dirby-]

I dont think Jesus would want any killing in his name.
*

[Zogo]

Are they holding you down in a dog pile and preventing you from getting that precious organ transplant? No.

stem cells yes..

[FluxCapacitor]

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/ervil_lebaron_cult/index.html

sup harmless mormons :) (I felt like posting but had nothing to post on the subject because people have taken my side already, ones better versed in this argument, so I have decided to give a good read instead) Nothing really on the subject but it's an interesting read.

[Yesbama]

So what? There is nothing wrong with a family instilling their values into their own children... Just because you don't agree with their values doesn't make it wrong.



You have a puny perceptive of what is meant by emotionalism. Furthermore why are you bringing up evangelism when it wasn't even a previous point of mine or anybody’s? I fail to see how Evangelism affects you in such a direct way. Are they forcing you to listen? Are they holding you down in a dog pile and preventing you from getting that precious organ transplant? No.

I will agree that the fear put out by the type of evangelism you mention is rather ineffective and overused with minimal results. It’s not the type of evangelism I would recommend either.

I was basing my statement more towards your judgment of folks who participate in "emotionalism". Just to give you a hard time.

And about the whole instilled beliefs thingy. Personally I do not think it is correct for a parent to encourage their children to think in a way that is so closed-minded that it is on the brim of brainwashing.

Yeah, they want their kids to think like them and have the protection, hope, and love that they get from their own worldviews but there are different ways to go about it. Instilling fanatical, narrow-minded views that damn near retard cognitive development (I'm reaching but you get the idea) at such a young age should be a crime. These kids just want to play outside and discover their world, they don't give a flying turd about abortion, stem cells, cloning, genetics, evolutionary theory, RELIGION, politics, or much of anything. They are being brought up to misunderstand their world on the greatest level possible because they are shrouded by religion.

Instead of being taught to accept others, embrace individuality, respect all people of all walks of life and of all beliefs, they are taught that their beliefs are the only correct ones and those who do not believe are wrong. It makes me sick to my stomach when I think about how homosexual marriage is even an issue in our country. And it's all because of, oops oh no guess, yeah religion.

[Insolence]

Jesus was a cut and run pinko commie.