FF & League Multiclanning Rules

[CHIPMAN]

From STA (http://tfc.sta-league.org) :

<CHIPMAN|AFK> all i'd like for you to do is state your position within STA (if thats ok)
<CHIPMAN|AFK> and more important, and general translation of STA's multiclanning rules
<[FOoM]Fornaught> well i just finsihed editing all the sta rules a few days ago
<[FOoM]Fornaught> "Any player currently participating in match play with a TFC 9vs9 clan other than their current, single STA-TFC 9vs9 Clan will be considered to be multi-clanning"
<CHIPMAN|AFK> and punishment?
<[FOoM]Fornaught> penalty is variable, depending on circumstance
<[FOoM]Fornaught> but it is pretty harsh
<CHIPMAN|AFK> and your position within STA?
<[FOoM]Fornaught> gold admin


From TFL (http://www.tfleague.com):

<wf> from what is observed in our day-to-day admin duties, multi-clanning is still something we keep our eyes open for
<CHIPMAN|AFK> so its illegal in TFL as well?
<wf> i believe most of the admins of tfl are old-school and support the notion of ONE clan
<wf> yea it is
<CHIPMAN|AFK> and your position within TFL?
<wf> site coordinator and anti-cheat/disputes

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There you go, so currently, in North American TFC 9v9 Leagues (STA & TFL) it is considered illegal to be in a different clan for each league. That is, if you want to play in both leagues, you have to be with the same clan.
This rule has been around for a very long time, and was a big help to konspiracy.org's clan ranking system (ranking all pure clans -- that is, clans that were real teams who played in leagues that did not allow multiclanning).

My question, for all of you out there in our lovely community:
Should the multi-clanning rules currently upheld in TFC leagues remain in place for upcoming FF/TF2 ladders opened up by any & all leagues in North America?

I do not mean multi-clanning across mods (i.e. if you're in a different clan for FF and TF2, or TFC and FF, then that is not multi-clanning, as they're 2 different games).

This will also only apply to ladders of the same size -- i.e. your 5v5 clan does not have to be the same clan that you play with for 8v8/9v9.

So there you have it, post your honest opinions please. League admins will definitely be watching this. Also, if anyone here knows how konspiracy.org works (with regards to pure clan tracking/ranking), I encourage you to post a sufficient explanation of how it works, and how multi-clanning effects it.

[mafiaman]

why would you want to be in more then 1 clan. this thread is stupid.

[WonderBoy]

of course

[Corsair]

why would you want to be in more then 1 clan. this thread is stupid.

Ditto.

[Kartikeya-OD]

why would you want to be in more then 1 clan. this thread is stupid.


RoC only plays in TFL now. What if I wanted to keep playing in STA, I would need to join another team.

[Corsair]

RoC only plays in TFL now. What if I wanted to keep playing in STA, I would need to join another team.

Hypothetical: What if every clan in STA was also in TFL?

I suppose if you joined a second clan that was ONLY in STA, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but if you wanted to play on the STA roster of a clan that was in both STA and TFL, I'd say no.

[-CyRuS-]

i think the whole multi clan thing is BS, for me Multclan means being in diff clans in the same league, i mean 1 league has diff rules than the other, and there are some clans out there that only do 1 league. for all i care they could be in a diff clan in a diff league, thats why its A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT LEAGUE! if a player wants to be in a diff clan thats in another league, let them, imo

[rabidkevin]

Maybe when there were 250 clans it made sense, not when there are 35

[valk]

doesnt this also mean that if ur in clanA in STA that you cant be in clanB in an overseas comp i.e ozfl?

[Kartikeya-OD]

Hypothetical: What if every clan in STA was also in TFL?

I suppose if you joined a second clan that was ONLY in STA, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but if you wanted to play on the STA roster of a clan that was in both STA and TFL, I'd say no.

It shouldn't matter if both teams are in both leagues. What should matter is the fact that your only listed once on each league's site.

[Commander]

Obviously people should only be on a single roster within a league/ladder, but I don't think it should matter what roster you're on in another league.

[ODAY]

ive been wanting to see the multiclanner rule out for a long time ... like kev said it made sense when there was alot of clans .. just saves leagues hassles


but comon folks... year 7 in tfc .. let it go ( i know thats not the point of the post)


YES get rid of it for ff/tf2 unless again like kev says theres alot of teams

[catman]

At the very least, I think the leagues should allow you to multi-clan if clanA is in STA only and clanB is in TFL only. Of course, when TF2 comes around there will be more than two leagues so my viewpoint will basically be null. There are many things that need to be changed in STA, I only hope that they take a good look at their current rules and revise them for the new mods.

I'd rather want to know when STA 9v9 is going to drop to two divisions of 20 clans each, and 5vs5 to drop a division. Woops, I shouldn't change the subject. It will be hard to determine what the multi-clanning rules should be until we know how many different leagues there will be (and number of clans) as well as if these leagues can coexist or if they will despise each other.

[[XtN]bona]

We should start it out right. Look at the major sports leagues. There is ONE LEAGUE PER SPORT. NFL for example has 2 divisions, but has ONE LEAGUE.

I couldn't tell you where the multiclanning thing came from. I wasn't around that long ago when dinosaurs walked on our computers. I do understand the whole idea of it though and why it is done. It makes the job of the admin easier but it also makes the clan a little more stable.

I think

1 league

2 divisions

East West Conferences

1 champ

1 season

no trading between seasons

Why the hell not

It's be a fun change. Pick your team. For better or for worse you are with them till the end of the season. Don't be a shithole since you are losing you back out and just go play a different game for a few months. Be a fucking Woman or a MAN and play the whole damn season for your team. YOUR TEAM. I'd love that. I would LOVE that.

That is how TFC should be played.

[Jimyd]

TFL is pretty much STA with anything go rules. That's why the multiclanning issue is shared between them.

But really, it's two differnt leagues. I know right now my team is pretty much TFL only for the time being, it'd be nice to play a few matches of sta for a bit.


Hey i got an even greater idea, some people really dont care about kse stats (like me), and it be nice when you join the league(s) to have checkbox if you want your stats recorded.

*I've only been to the KSE site maybe a 100 times, if that, in my whole "TFC Career"*

(Obviously there would be some data recorded for admins, like steamid,ip adresses,etc.) but this would let someone play on whatever team they want. They just wouldnt be ranked on the kse ladder.

Would probly require the whole kse system remade for FF/TF2 though, so you may not do that.

Multi clanning should only apply within the same league, =)

[Fornaught]

Successful leagues have a goal to encourage a team oriented approach in league matchplay, rather than an individuals self-interest.
The multiclanning rule's intent is to help promote stable TFC Clans and a stronger TFC community and is part of our team oriented focus.

The benefit of stable and longer-lived clans is that they tend to be better "citizens" in leagues. So that makes admins job's easier all around.
Without multiclanning rules, and it's sister rule on ringing, players would be free to play with clans they have little or no bond with. They might care little for the long term viability of their "clan of the week" or for "just their second clan they play TFL with". That could promote less than desirable conduct in matchplay. If a lot of players multiclan, it changes the focus of leagueplay away from the teams, the opposite of our goal.

When players are limited to one clan in all USA 9vs9 play, they have stronger bonds to their teammates and that gives us stronger clans. That in turn builds a better league and a tighter community.

For those setting up a USA league for FF or TF2, I would encourage them to consider continuing this idea.

[MidnightStalker]

If FF or TF2 ever grows to be as big as TFC was, then I think the current rules should definitely apply.

[Jarek]

I enjoy how close everyone in AGT is, it wouldn't be the same if they were the enemy on another weeknight. 9v9 is the only league people try in, so I don't mind playing against them in UGC because it's pretty much a pickup game imo. Even when I face ex AGT people like Moreno and cops it feels wrong :(

[b-buddy]

It shouldn't matter if both teams are in both leagues. What should matter is the fact that your only listed once on each league's site.

the ultimate warrior wins

[wraithforger]

although the quote of me by chipman is from a league stance, i personally agree with the concept

i think fornaught stated it well

[Nomad]

Ever since I had a long conversation with an old league admin whose name escapes me at the moment, I've had a tough time taking a firm stand on either side of the issue.
There are benefits and disadvantages on each side of the coin, and it's difficult to state that the rule is universally good or bad. Fornaught mentioned some of the reasons to keep the rule in existance.

When it comes down to it though, what are clans but groups of players? And isn't the whole point of leagues to facilitate the mutual enjoyment of TFC by the players?
I think that making it illegal for players to play in a second clan in a seperate league has just as much potential to weaken loyalty and bonds within clans as the elimination of the multiclanning rule in its current form.
For example, if your clan decided to drop a league and only play one night a week, wouldn't most of us who enjoy two matches a week seriously consider leaving and joining another clan who played two nights a week?

I think the best solution overall would be to change the rule so that players can only play in one clan per league.

[[RiCE]Doc.JF]

i really couldn't care less who plays on a team for each league, as long as one doesn't multi-clan within the same league


i actually think it'd make the game more interesting, & would probably help to elminate the "dynasty" thing (where 1 clan is the leader of several leagues)

Doc

[CR0C0DILE]

A clan is a family, and you only have one family. you dont understand the concept of clan if you think being in two at the same time is OK.
You have no loyalty, no bond. your just on a roster, not part of a family. Thats not what clans are all about and real clans dont have multiclanners.

[[RiCE]Doc.JF]

A clan is a family, and you only have one family. you dont understand the concept of clan if you think being in two at the same time is OK.
You have no loyalty, no bond. your just on a roster, not part of a family. Thats not what clans are all about and real clans dont have multiclanners.

i'm not sure i'd take it that seriously lol....

Doc

[CZ_]

bona']We should start it out right. Look at the major sports leagues. There is ONE LEAGUE PER SPORT. NFL for example has 2 divisions, but has ONE LEAGUE.

I couldn't tell you where the multiclanning thing came from. I wasn't around that long ago when dinosaurs walked on our computers. I do understand the whole idea of it though and why it is done. It makes the job of the admin easier but it also makes the clan a little more stable.

I think

1 league

2 divisions

East West Conferences

1 champ

1 season

no trading between seasons

Why the hell not

It's be a fun change. Pick your team. For better or for worse you are with them till the end of the season. Don't be a shithole since you are losing you back out and just go play a different game for a few months. Be a fucking Woman or a MAN and play the whole damn season for your team. YOUR TEAM. I'd love that. I would LOVE that.

That is how TFC should be played.


If i get traded i want a higher salary not any of this 6.50 bull shit

[Jimyd]

A clan is a family, and you only have one family. you dont understand the concept of clan if you think being in two at the same time is OK.
You have no loyalty, no bond. your just on a roster, not part of a family. Thats not what clans are all about and real clans dont have multiclanners.

Considering the fact that i have about 4-5 differnt clans, LOL @ you.

It's just a roster for organized play, that's all.

But you don't seem to get the concept, 2 differnt leagues shouldn't be connected.

That's why TFL is called TFL and not STA2. Pretty much end of story right there.

It could easily be solved for clan leader/captain/owner/"FAMILY FOUNDER" to have a checkbox when creating clan for ____ league, they can opt to be a 1 league only clan. That way they wont have kse points or w/e recorded in a league they dont even play.

Suprised nobody has thought of that.

But multiclanning rules should apply for inside the league. I.E. i can't be on a bronze and a silver roster for sta. Or for TFL a 2a and 3a. Nor 2 clans and same division.

Yay for politics. =)

[leg]

I really don't see what the big deal is. You can be in multiple 5v5, 7v7 clans, but not 9v9. As long as you don't hack and are not on multiple rosters for the same league, why shouldn't you be allowed to play?

Although I understand this whole "promote team play clan togetherness" stuff I really think that most people belive that playing a video games is a selfish way of fulfilling their desires.

[Telos]

some people want a "family", others just want to play tfc. At this stage in tfc, I see no problem playing with a different team in a different 9v9 league. Its kind of strange that leagues are basically creating rules for other leagues with this one rule (meaning if one league has the rule, then it affects players in all leagues).

Make PFL an 8v8 league to allow for mutt teams.

[CHIPMAN]

BTW the thread has nothing to do with the current TFC rules -- it was mostly just asking if you wanted them kept around for FF/TF2, which (hopefully) will have larger communities.

[Kool_Guy_RyanN]

It shouldn't matter if both teams are in both leagues. What should matter is the fact that your only listed once on each league's site.


This sums it up. I have had arguments in the past with all the leagues trying to get this rule..

Who cares what clan you play for in what league. Just as long as your on one team, in each league.

[[RiCE]Doc.JF]

chipman i think the argument sort of boiled down to the philosophy of the whole rule in the first place.... so i'm sure whatever people are arguing here they would want carried over for FF/TF2

i personally would like to play for more than 1 clan in FF/TF2 for the plain fact that maybe an old TFC clan of mine may want to come back and play for fun, but some of us might like to play seriously as well - and therefore would want another clan.

Doc

[leg]

I'm just guessing, but I think that one of the main reasons that this multiclanning rule was created was to prevent konspiracy's statistics from being distorted. Obviously if one clan had a completely different team in TFL than in STA the overall statistics would be meaningless. However, the flaw in this is that TFL allows certain players to play where STA does not. So even today you could basically have a bronze clan tanking in STA while raping in 1a with their STA banlisted roster.

FYI, I'm not trying to imply that people on the STA ban list still hack or are even good...

[b-buddy]

its a game made for fun limiting people to 1 clan is pretty shitty especially this far into the game. kart's right as long as u only have yer id on 1 team for each league it should be ok and im sure it might help limit some forfeits

[NazgulEC]

i think the whole multi clan thing is BS, for me Multclan means being in diff clans in the same league, i mean 1 league has diff rules than the other, and there are some clans out there that only do 1 league. for all i care they could be in a diff clan in a diff league, thats why its A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT LEAGUE! if a player wants to be in a diff clan thats in another league, let them, imo

lol cyrus remember when bE| got kicked out of TFL because of this rule?

[ODAY]

bona']We should start it out right. Look at the major sports leagues. There is ONE LEAGUE PER SPORT. NFL for example has 2 divisions, but has ONE LEAGUE.

I couldn't tell you where the multiclanning thing came from. I wasn't around that long ago when dinosaurs walked on our computers. I do understand the whole idea of it though and why it is done. It makes the job of the admin easier but it also makes the clan a little more stable.

I think

1 league

2 divisions

East West Conferences

1 champ

1 season

no trading between seasons

Why the hell not

It's be a fun change. Pick your team. For better or for worse you are with them till the end of the season. Don't be a shithole since you are losing you back out and just go play a different game for a few months. Be a fucking Woman or a MAN and play the whole damn season for your team. YOUR TEAM. I'd love that. I would LOVE that.

That is how TFC should be played.



that day this happens, is the day i shoot the league admins and kill myself
many "draft" style bs's have been tried and as far as i know every single one has failed


as i said... this was a stupid idea 2 years ago .. its a stupid idea now ... lets keep the leagues the same people jesus .. its worked for how long?... 7 years?


i cant talk for everyone and not many people would want me talking at all ... i dont care much for anything but the current way the "ladders" are being run .. i like it .. other then the muttteam/multi clan rule .. i think there fine ... cept for sta 5v5... horrible league

[Slash]

I agree completely with the philosophy behind the rule and I think many others do too. You should be in 1 clan per "game" or "community" within that game (ie, different clans for 5v5 or Europe or NZ is ok). A clan should be like a family between members. I can also see how you could say the opposite- Maybe your the type of clanner that just shows up and plays matches and doesn't interact with clan members otherwise and you want as much match time as possible.

However, I think the greater question is whether or not it is the league's place to enforce the rules either way. I say no. It creates unnessary administration overhead. Clans who want to be like "families" won't allow "multi-clanning" from their members. Players who intend to play for multiple clans won't be recruited in the first place. Clans that don't care, don't care, and whether the rule is there or not they will fail or succeed with a bunch of people that "just want to play". I don't think it's the league's responsibility to enforce rules that supposively "strengthen" bonds between clan members. The bonds will be there or they wont. Some text on a league website "Rules" page isn't going to make me like catman anymore than I do (which is not much, tbh).

And if you want 1 clan across all leagues, there needs to be better administration and cooperation between all leagues. In essance, there needs to be a master roster database of some sort that all leagues use. How easy would it be for me (someone only playing in STA) to get a new SteamID and join a TFL roster under another clan? If that clan is also in STA or not doesn't really matter because there is no way anyone would find out unless they were specifically researching my actions. Which is why I say again- there must be a master roster system across all leagues. Which is absurd to expect all leagues to conform to some global roster system that noone will be able to agree upon anyways. I will just make a league that doesn't use it. Then what? More problems. Forget about it. It's not the league's place to be concerned with this. Each person (and all associated SteamIDs) should be on ONE clan in any given league. If you want more KSE points, it will be the same clan, with the same people, across all leagues so you can get a lot of points and be #1 :D

[wraithforger]

There's two bases for the original rule...(1) honor & respect for ONE clan and (2) making admins' life easier as a result of #1.

In "today's" TFC, I really don't see it as much of an issue due to the declining days. However, as chip mentioned, this is about the future with FF/TF2/etc.

When TFC was at its prime, the imposed mc rule made hella sense to many people (both honorably and administratively). Now...it wouldn't be a big deal just for TFC.

For the new games, I submit that the original purpose for this rule still has significant merit. I understand the complaints of leagues NOW for TFC...but that is not the intent of the thread. When these new games are finally introduced, the # of clans will be profound (imo). With the amount of work it requires to start and maintain a league, it will likely be left to 3-4 leagues as we see now. As a result, I expect to see the same opinion (by the masses) as was back when TFC was at its prime.