north korea going nuclear..

[ass*assassin]

what's everyone's thoughts on this? it looks like japan, s. korea and a number of other se asian powers are looking at going nuclear now that the north has done 'the dirty deed'..

this opens up a whole new applecart in the asian area.. i mean, even japan is seriously contemplating going nuclear, and this from a country that has forsworn nukes.. i think some deal will be made ala germany, where we guarantee japan with our nuclear umbrella.. dunno though.. same with many of our allies over there, such as australia and new zealand, which already come under the british umbrella.. even hearing rumours of singapore jumping on the bandwagon too..

and, get this, the next head of the u.n. is going to be a south korean.. geez.. you couldn't write a novel like this..

[Unique]

were fucked. 2012 AD

[dys]

The U.N. lives or dies with this issue.

[Moniker]

Whatever happens, I will be majorly pissed of the US doesn't use this as a way to grow closer to China. Maybe my priorities are out of whack.

[King_Nada]

At least the wussy democrats aren't in power! Then I'd be scared!

King

[koruptid]

Whatever happens, I will be majorly pissed of the US doesn't use this as a way to grow closer to China. Maybe my priorities are out of whack.
I'm sure China is getting tired of sticking its neck out for NK.

[MidnightStalker]

Let the nuclear arms race begin--again!

[Zogo]

what's everyone's thoughts on this?

it's inevitable. if the entire world doesn't blow up spectacularly then I expect the bahamas to have nukes by 2050 or something.

[EverythingZen]

I haven't caught the news today, but I saw the "breaking news" during my late night insomnia as JAPAN TRYING VERY HARD TO CONFIRM N.KOREA NUCLEAR TESTS. I remember North Korea going global with other big news that turned out to be complete fraud, has there been anymore truth to this? To my understanding there is no actual proof of this underground detonation being nuclear.

According to North Korea, they have also already launched "mock" nuclear warheads (ICBM) and nailed a southern part of Alaska the same week we went to war with Iraq. This however was reported on by the mass media. (http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200303/kt2003030417272311970.htm)

[MidnightStalker]

Well according to The Drudge (same ones who said Foley IMs were a hoax), the US said the radiocarbon levels were too low to have a nuclear bomb or something.

[MV8]

This is obviously a stunt engineered by Karl Rove to get the Foley crap off of page 1 news...

[ass*assassin]

was reading further today into the reports of the nuke.. the original estimates were for a small explosion of 5kt to 10kt.. however, today they are saying that the explosion was somewhere around 500metric tonnes..

the first is what i would expect for a small fission warhead.. the second, i would not.. either:

1. the warhead fizzled.. 500 metric tonnes is almost impossible to achieve in a nuclear warhead without something really going wrong.. it would be an incomplete detonation, and the amount of radioactivity would be off the chart.. or...

2. they faked it.. they are trying to pull a fast one.. understand, 500metric tonnes of explosives would be easy for them to get, considering just one of our aircraft carriers carries in excess of 2,000 tons of conventional explosives at all times..

i am almost led to believe that #2 happened.. however, everyone will say number 1 happened, to achieve their goals, both us and them. remember this, the truth is the first casualty of war.. and i think the real first shot has been fired once more..

[larcain]

I'm going with MV's assessment...Karl Rove planted explosives in an abandoned mine. And he would have gotten away with too if it hadn't been for those meddling kids and their dog...

[Repair Man]

I have a feeling scooby wouldn't make it back from north korea alive.

EDIT: Regardless of what really did happen, this is probably the dumbest thing North Korea could have done. They don't have what you'd call a healthy relationship with any of their current "allies," and this certainly isn't going to make them any friends.

[Repair Man]

South Korea's Yonhap news agency, in a dispatch carried by The Associated Press, quoted an unidentified North Korean official as saying, "We hope the situation will be resolved before an unfortunate incident of us firing a nuclear missile comes."

"That depends on how the U.S. will act," the official said.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/10/10/korea.nuclear.test/index.html

I have a feeling this is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

[koruptid]

We better watch out or they'll launch a nuclear missle that will crash in the ocean and fail to detonate.

[Jarek]

were fucked. 2012 AD
I used to have a sig that counted down until december 23 2012, but it was too much hassle to update consistantely.

...and yes Japan is all fine and dandy going nuclear, but NK should have been handled before Iran, Iraq, or Afghanistan, it is too late now without facing total war.

[janordy]

Remember guys, even though Iraq is farther away and less advanced technologically than North Korea, they are the real threat to America. Every night when I go to sleep I thank our government from protecting us from the REAL threats.

[King_Nada]

This really isn't the place for sarcasm Janordy. You don't see anyone else doing it do you?

King

[schtoofa]

Why did Bush let this happen? WTF

[IceCreamMan]

Why did Bush let this happen? WTF


Because Israel does not care about Korea.

[Rimuladas]

We will let China take care of it. We have almost everyone around N.Korea on our side when it comes to not letting N.Korea go nuclear. All China has to do is cut of power and food and N.Korea is in a world of hurt.

[MidnightStalker]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061011/ap_on_re_as/koreas_nuclear

According to North Korea, sanctions = decleration of war.

[janordy]

You are right King_Nada, this is a professional environment where everything should be well thought out and to the point. Serious issues demand serious forum posts. I apologize for my sarcasm to you. Thank you for showing me the error of my ways.

[agi|e]

So they get nuclear weapons. So what? If they ever used them against anyone they would be wiped off the face of the earth by the rest of the world. This is just another filler story made up by the AP. Pakistan and India also have nuclear capability and they haven't used them. There's no point in making pointless threats against N. Korea since we all know the US won't attack them anyway. The most they can do is impose economic sanctions. It's pure fantasy to think the US would start an all out war with a country as strong as N. Korea. The US only bullies countries it thinks it can easily beat that have significant assets which can be exploited.

Here's a real story: 60,000 dead Iraqi citizens since the war in Iraq started. And that's a conservative estimate. How many more people have to die before the US is revenged for 9/11?

[rabidkevin]

Here's a real story: 60,000 dead Iraqi citizens since the war in Iraq started. And that's a conservative estimate. How many more people have to die before the US is revenged for 9/11?

Someone else said today it's more like 600,000 http://www.ft.com/cms/s/274e150e-5945-11db-9eb1-0000779e2340.html

[koruptid]

I'm pretty sure it's six million, and it's all our fault. We keep our troops in their country to keep the peace, what are the Iraqi people supposed to do if not wantonly kill each other?

[c0mmon]

Rumsfield sold korea nuclear missles,

trace the bush family history, his great great grandpop started it by selling weapons to fund the nazi's our leaders make personal cash off of this shit

[MidnightStalker]

Last I checked, Rumsfield wasn't apart of the Bush family.

I digress though; more Bush bashing!!! :rolleyes:

[MV8]

So they get nuclear weapons. So what? If they ever used them against anyone they would be wiped off the face of the earth by the rest of the world. This is just another filler story made up by the AP. Pakistan and India also have nuclear capability and they haven't used them. There's no point in making pointless threats against N. Korea since we all know the US won't attack them anyway. The most they can do is impose economic sanctions. It's pure fantasy to think the US would start an all out war with a country as strong as N. Korea. The US only bullies countries it thinks it can easily beat that have significant assets which can be exploited.

Here's a real story: 60,000 dead Iraqi citizens since the war in Iraq started. And that's a conservative estimate. How many more people have to die before the US is revenged for 9/11?


NK has a history of selling high-end weapons to anyone with cash. The fear is not the NK would use them, but that they would sell them to anyone with cash.

NK is not strong. It is very weak. It has a massive army, with no food or fuel. What makes them dangerous is that they have tens of thousands of artillary pieces pointed south, and the first volley of fire would kill a million or so South Koreans. It has been established that the mad man in charge of NK does not care about the welfare of his people. He has allowed them to starve by the millions. He could end their suffering in less than a month, if he would only do what he promised he would back in 1994 and 1996 and 2001, and 2003...But he won't...

gotta love this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h3GPc_yMCE

[agi|e]

Someone else said today it's more like 600,000 http://www.ft.com/cms/s/274e150e-5945-11db-9eb1-0000779e2340.html

I saw this too but it's been disputed by the administration. Bush says 30,000 and the

http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed/pollack/20060820.htm

Brookings Institution says "tens of thousands" but I saw a newspaper article quoting the number as 60,000 from them.

[xero]

This is all a big deal, but there's nothing that can be done about it.

This entire situation is going to be hedged on Japan, China, and South Korea, who are now probably going to start a nuclear arms race. Japan is already examining the amending of their constitution to permit them to construct nuclear weapons for their SDF, and SK has the technological capability of full-scale nuclear arms production probably within a year from now -- hell, we might even offer them help. And China...well, we already know they have them.

The most we can do at this point is offer every nation in East and Southeast Asia we like a membership to NATO, because the clear wording of "if you attack our friends, we will attack you" is a particularly strong deterrent to such a fledgling nation, nuclear weapons or not.

So then, of course, our biggest problem is proliferation -- because we know that NK is broke, and we know that they have no qualms about selling nuclear technology to anybody who can afford it. Especially not when the people on the receiving end are people they really don't like anyways.

If anything, we've helped cause all of this. Our demonstration that we tend to invade dramatically lesser powers on trumped up evidence of nuclear arms development tends to result in only one realistic solution: real nuclear arms development to prevent invasion.

North Korea was also begging to have talks at one point, and our foolish refusal to negotiate resulted in the actual development of actual arms, not just the threat of development. Now, one can definitely consider talking to NK and providing aid in exchange for not developing nuclear technology to be a bribe (I do), at least it's a bribe that has the end result of keeping Dear Leader from getting WMDs and/or selling them off to the highest bidder.

This is a lesson that has been learned by both Iran and NK to a staggering degree -- NK has theirs (and now only needs a working long range missle to mount it on), and Iran is working towards them as fast as possible; ignoring us because our politics are embarassing, our military might is tied up in Iraq, and our international standing is in the toilet because of our arrogance.

[MightyCawdoR]

North Korea was also begging to have talks at one point, and our foolish refusal to negotiate resulted in the actual development of actual arms, not just the threat of development. Now, one can definitely consider talking to NK and providing aid in exchange for not developing nuclear technology to be a bribe (I do), at least it's a bribe that has the end result of keeping Dear Leader from getting WMDs and/or selling them off to the highest bidder.

This is a lesson that has been learned by both Iran and NK to a staggering degree -- NK has theirs (and now only needs a working long range missle to mount it on), and Iran is working towards them as fast as possible; ignoring us because our politics are embarassing, our military might is tied up in Iraq, and our international standing is in the toilet because of our arrogance.

What would have stopped them from developing the same technology secretly while we provided them with food and material?

[Zogo]

ignoring us because our politics are embarassing, our military might is tied up in Iraq, and our international standing is in the toilet because of our arrogance.

I wouldn't say they're ignoring us. the leader of iran wanted to debate bush and bush was too scared.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h3GPc_yMCE

they should've used that.

[xero]

What would have stopped them from developing the same technology secretly while we provided them with food and material?Because the foundation of the aid package is regular inspections and full cooperation with our government when it comes to nonproliferation, production, or research.

You know, just like almost all aid packages.

Including aid packages like one that we gave Iraq -- the ones that resulted in Saddam never having the WMDs we claimed he did when we invaded.

[MV8]

Including aid packages like one that we gave Iraq -- the ones that resulted in Saddam never having the WMDs we claimed he did when we invaded.


Ummmm...Iraq never had an aid package. The UN "ran" the Food for Oil program, and Saddam was able to skim something like 15Billion dollars from it...

The package that Clinton gave NK did not require inspections for the first five years of the deal, thereby assuring that the package would implode on the next administration.

[Terminotaur]

Regardless of what really did happen, this is probably the dumbest thing North Korea could have done. They don't have what you'd call a healthy relationship with any of their current "allies," and this certainly isn't going to make them any friends.
How is this the dumbest thing North Korea could have done? You are acting as if this is a nation that wants to act diplomatically and open itself to the rest of the world. In reality, North Korea is the embodiment of a twisted, power-hungry dictator who wants to remain in his position. North Korea is an actual Orwellian nightmare. All of its citizens are brainwashed prisoners.

[Repair Man]

It doesn't matter what Kim Jong-il's agenda is, having friends in high places (in this case, China) is never a bad thing, and alienating themselves any further isn't going to help them get anything accomplished.

If anything, they should have gone ahead with the Nuclear tests in secret. If they're able to keep it under wraps, they can continue to collect aid from foreign nations and they gain instant leverage at the negotiating table if anything drastic happens. Kim-Jong would be free to exploit his people for the rest of his life with little to no interferance.

[Terminotaur]

If they're able to keep it under wraps, they can continue to collect aid from foreign nations and they gain instant leverage at the negotiating table if anything drastic happens. Kim-Jong would be free to exploit his people for the rest of his life with little to no interferance.
Or maybe Kim Jong Il fears for his safety and believes making it public that he has a nuclear weapons program and an intent to use it if he deems necessary is a necessary step to deter invasion? Maybe he believes having the capacity to shell Seoul isn't enough of a deterrant and that nuclear missiles would ensure his safety. We saw how ardently denying having a nuclear weapons program worked out for Saddam. I really don't think Kim Jong is too worried about getting foreign aid compared to his need to feel safe.

[Zogo]

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/10/koreaREU121006_548x700.jpg in NK only the super rich get any power after 9PM. that little dot is whee kim jong-il and his rich buddies live.

communism 101

[dys]

Nuclear proliferation is a fading dream that has yet to be acknowledged as such. Times have changed and with the obvious international concern essentially meaning squat, countries are going to go ahead and do as they wish, as evidenced in the past decade. Sanctions do not work and the U.N. is a circus act.

It's time to move past the dream and accept reality with a new system of regulation; nuclear accountability. The world powers need to come to an agreement that any country with a nuclear power plant is monitored 100%. Let me say that again, any country with nuclear development, whether it be for energy or weaponry should have no say whatsoever in regards to it being monitored. It happens or the world powers remove that 'right' to even work with nuclear science. Failure to comply results in immediate revocation of said government's power. Should a country choose to weaponize themselves with nukes, which would be exposed through such monitoring, they would be held accountable for those devices being detonated anywhere. For example, the biggest fear about N.K. right now is not that they are going to attack someone, it is about who they're going to sell it to. With the radiation signatures that can be traced right back to the place of development, any detonation anywhere in the world would mean that such country is held accountable, and responsible for that attack. That is the deterrent force.

"if you attack our friends, we will attack you"

This is spot on and goes hand in hand with what I'm saying. If N.K. decides to secretly sell Salaami Babaganeush nukes, (which would be much more difficult with mandated regulation/inspection) and he detonates them in a terrorist attack, not only do we go after the terrorist but the world holds N.K. directly responsible as well. Such punishment would include little Kim Jong's immediate removal from power, based on a previously ratified agreement from the world powers.

[MidnightStalker]

Err.. Actually I'd start by not allowing him to sell them to terrorists.

[dys]

(which would be much more difficult with mandated regulation/inspection).

[schtoofa]

North Korea was also begging to have talks at one point, and our foolish refusal to negotiate resulted in the actual development of actual arms, not just the threat of development.

Actually, Sec. of State Rice had authorized a trip for one of her representatives to go to N.K. to begin talks / negotiations. In exchange for beginning talks, N.K. was asked to temporarily shut down a particular nuclear facility as an act of good faith. This offer was presented to N.K., and N.K. refused to shut down said facility. So who is being unreasonable and who really refused to negotiate? Gimme a break.

Now, one can definitely consider talking to NK and providing aid in exchange for not developing nuclear technology to be a bribe (I do), at least it's a bribe that has the end result of keeping Dear Leader from getting WMDs and/or selling them off to the highest bidder.

One might argue that by giving significant aid to countries in exchange for "halting"* nuclear programs, we encourage (poor) countries to develop nuclear programs.

*I star "halting" because supposedly NK "halted" their nuclear program according to the Agreed Framework with Clinton. It's ridiculous to assume that nuclear weapons were developed from start to finish between the time NK cut off inspections and now. They were being developed all along. So, in essence, we spent taxpayer dollars to feed North Koreans, meanwhile the government built up a nuclear arsenal. Sounds like a lose-lose for us.

I wouldn't say they're ignoring us. the leader of iran wanted to debate bush and bush was too scared.

OMG zogo how could you say our cowboy is scared???

Because the foundation of the aid package is regular inspections and full cooperation with our government when it comes to nonproliferation, production, or research.

You know, just like almost all aid packages.

Including aid packages like one that we gave Iraq -- the ones that resulted in Saddam never having the WMDs we claimed he did when we invaded.

See above. Those sure worked in North Korea... :rolleyes: I think recent history has shown that chances are slim to none that effective inspections can actually take place. It's unfortunate, but it seems to be the case :(

Can you say oil-for-food scandals? It's been shown in various documents and according to various accounts that Saddam fully intended to resume WMD programs and purchase loads of "dual use" equipement, regardless of whether he had them or not. Maybe we acted too soon in Iraq, I don't know. Or on the other hand, maybe we acted at the right time to prevent a nuclear Iraq (instead of slowing, which is the best we can hope for with NK and Iran).

It's simple math - the fewer states with nukes out there, the lesser a chance of accident or intentional transfer to non-states there is.

[xero]

So evidence today suggests that the 'successful nuclear test' may have been a hoax or a failure.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_nkorea;_ylt=AqV22Kh677LlhWdfFp6B_TOs0NUE;_ylu=X 3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

Discuss.

[dys]

What's interesting about that is what can/will they be held accountable for if it it's proven to be false claims? Can the sanctions still go ahead?

Additionaly, you just can't help but to wonder what the hell were they thinking? Are they really that ignorant to believe it wouldn't be found out? Or did they plan on being found out for making the false claim? It's really strange, time will tell I'm sure but there's a lot to think about if it does in fact turn out to be conclusive that it was fake.

[MidnightStalker]

I believed they actually tried (and perhaps failed, according to the new studies). All the top officials have said they've tried, and there's no point in lieing about that unless you're actually looking for sanctions. So I think even the attempt to detonate a nuclear bomb is enough for sanctions.

[Zogo]

OMG zogo how could you say our cowboy is scared???

lol..if bush had a valid point he'd be able to win the argument..but he knows that the "terrorist" would beat him.

[xero]

Fun fact: North Korea has the distinct honor of being the first country to fail to detonate a nuclear weapon on their first try.

[Repo]

This really isn't the place for sarcasm Janordy. You don't see anyone else doing it do you?

n00b

internet...serious business.

[dys]

"Sorry about the nuclear test."

LOL Ya don't hear that one everyday. I see two possibilities with how this is turning out. I tend to lean towards the first one.

1. China put a foot up their asses.
2. N. Korea did not expect to see sanctions hit them as fast as they did.

[Zogo]

maybe we paid him off.

[xero]

"Sorry about the nuclear test."

LOL Ya don't hear that one everyday. I see two possibilities with how this is turning out. I tend to lean towards the first one.

1. China put a foot up their asses.
2. N. Korea did not expect to see sanctions hit them as fast as they did.Part of the UN sanctions including banning luxury items like fine cognac -- which is pretty much the only thing Kimmy Neutron drinks.

No wonder he's apologizing.

;)