To League Admins:

[Sutterkane]

Please get it together and start merging and managing your divisions. Last night in STA there were 3 total matches in gold, and NINE in bronze. Last Thursday in TFL, there were absolutely ZERO matches in 1A. This week dvs is scheduled to play someone (even though their last match was played monday supposedly), and ae has a "forced bye" even though they've disbanded for a couple weeks now.

It's time to go to 2 divisions in both leagues. NOW. Not "We're working on it" fortress forever style. You simply move the upper division into the middle division and rename the two divisions. It's that easy.

Some people will say that "we'll still play the same teams over and over", well, welcome to the final days of tfc. It's going to be this way until the newer mods come out. Sorry you don't want to play tda and res you silver/2a sandbaggers, but 4 teams in a division isn't exactly diverse competition either.

[Kap`n]

well said..time to face reality..I know when you play in silver you dont want to really go into gold because there are endless byes and forfeits and you dont get weekly matches anymore...

[MightyMouse]

Id rather play TDA/r each week then some of these silver clans

[rabidkevin]

even if you merge the divisions you are still going to play the same 5 clans all the time if you are at the top of the ladder.. I really dont see any clans in silver taking on any team in gold. but I still agree with combining divisions. If you could see in Captain forums me and Dys are the big pushers for a 1 ladder system but none of the leagues want to go with it

[zack]

amen sutter. Maybe some of the silver clans won't ever beat res or tda, but some of them actually may rape res, plus it'd be nice to play some new faces for the first time in a year.

[doc]

Needs one ladder system yesterday.

[OhGr]

I support this outburst of madness...

I can see the frustration some have when they play same groups over and over and the flip side when a team is on a win streak they get put against someone of some serious talent. It has its pro/cons but it's really a good decision IMO.

but facts are facts there isn't a lot left anymore and teams at this point are hardly being "sandbagged" if you complain about it after this many years of TFC time to stop playing.

2 ladders!!! how about we get some league admins to reply with thoughts please.

[dys]

I can say this because it's my team -

It's silly that a team in dead last place is playing for the title and getting title shots with a +1 streak. I realize this means less title opportunities, but it's not deserved.

Meanwhile, INC.. poor INC. Bumped to 1a and gold and oddly enough we haven't played them. Clearly by rankings the two lowest teams in the divisions. Before you know it they're going to get bumped down without even playing the other lowest ranked team in their division. lol

Along with the ladder merge the scheduling system needs to be redone. Ideally teams of similar rank/ability would play eachother. Realistically that isn't easily done. But with a +/-3 in rankings you'd get pretty close to competitive matches, and the rankings would definitely balance out to an accurate list where there wouldn't be overly lopsided matches, or an entire ladder having 0 matches played. The only 'downside' to that is that the top 3 teams would play eachother more often, but in all reality - they already are with a whopping 5 teams in the upper ladders.

The big question/discussion needed for a merging of ladders would be how title shots/matches are scheduled. Would it always be the top 2 teams playing for the title with the 3rd and 4th place teams playing the title shot? Seems non-sensical. That would require some thought/input. I've never thought a title shot/match was necessary every week, so maybe any team that gets a +3 streak (or whatever number) going could then earn a title match, regardless of their rank. If there's two+ teams with a +3 streak, then they get scheduled against eachother in a title shot. Considering what I said earlier about how matches would be relatively evenly matched, this could work.


In conclusion, this suggestion has been brought up quite a bit lately in both STA and TFL captain forums, as Kevin mentioned. It appears STA might be working on it already and I've been told it was put on the backburner in TFL. But enough's enough, now is the time.

[Quattro]

wow, someone else noticed it too!

Here's what I wrote to Bomber:

[16:00] <S-absolute`work> you around ?
[16:02] <S-absolute`work> anyways.. I wanted to propse something to you.. about the 4 gold clans... 5 now with us
[16:02] <S-absolute`work> we're not looking forward to gold.. we're going to get pumpled
[16:02] <S-absolute`work> annihilated.
[16:02] <S-absolute`work> raped
[16:03] <S-absolute`work> owned
[16:03] <S-absolute`work> you get the point :P
[16:03] <S-absolute`work> there's 33 clans... why not divide up the 3 divisions with 11 clans? That gives a nice number to each division, gives evey clan in every division a shot at winning..
[16:04] <S-absolute`work> and at the rate that a silver clan moves up to gold, a gold one should die and reform in silver
[16:04] <S-absolute`work> I was in 459 and on of the reasons they died was because of the raping the recived in gold, but were too good for silver (Rabid suffered the same for a long time, and poor INC aswell)
[16:04] <S-absolute`work> DvS wasn't having an easy time in gold either... neither is INC.. if they're still there
[16:05] <S-absolute`work> we've had VERY close matches with L2D, AGT was only 3 caps behind us on high scoring rounds
[16:05] <S-absolute`work> uC is a solid clan too
[16:05] <S-absolute`work> my point thoughts are..
[16:06] <S-absolute`work> L2D, uC, AGT, BoA and one more Rabid/3Q move on up to gold
[16:06] <S-absolute`work> then bring 6 clans up from bronze to silver
[16:06] <S-absolute`work> that should level the palying field
[16:07] <S-absolute`work> 16 clans in bronze.. twice as many as silver, 4 times as many as gold
[16:07] <S-absolute`work> I say move up
[16:07] <S-absolute`work> SIN, mcxvi, FOOM (just aquired some good ppl) Beer, nLv & IGC
[16:09] <S-absolute`work> then atleast all the clans that have a +/- of -4 can actually get wins off each other instead of gettin raped by the clans who should be in silver

[Quattro]

Edited out via request.

[Tercel]

<S-absolute`work> I was in 459 and on of the reasons they died was because of the raping the recived in gold, but were too good for silver

that wasnt at all related to why we broke up absolute. 459 was a 1.5a clan for a loooooong time.

considering you were still fairly new to the clan when we disbanded i can see why you dont really understand the reasoning of why we actually did break up =\

[Edy]

what kind of an admin says teh.

[Quattro]

I know why we did tercel... but being an in-between clan didn't benefit them one bit.

[[RiCE]Doc.JF]

i think one thing people tend to forget is that playing better clans will eventually make you better over time....

when RiCE moved up from Gold to Plat we weren't exactly dominating Gold or anything. Now, i realize at that time there were many more teams at the Platinum level, and thus it was a little easier to win. but, the thing i did notice is our quality of play began to increase as we started playing teams that were CLEARLY better than us (and they proved it, too).

to me the root issue is clans not having what it takes to stick it through tough times.... not the clans' skill level being imbalanced. i know it may not be very much fun for a clan like scissors to move up into Gold & get pummled by TDA/r/RES all the time. but guess what, if we stick it out, we'll probably learn a thing or two. and maybe, JUST MAYBE, can actually pull out a few wins.

so, to sum up what i'm saying..... to the leagues: merge your divisions so there's enough clans in each one. to the clans: suck it up and learn to improve - there's almost nothing more fun than beating or coming close to a top ranked team when you're the underdog.

Doc

p.s. sorry abs :O

[BoSlim]

[16:05] <S-absolute`work> we've had VERY close matches with L2D, AGT was only 3 caps behind us on high scoring rounds
[16:05] <S-absolute`work> uC is a solid clan too
[16:05] <S-absolute`work> my point thoughts are..
[16:06] <S-absolute`work> L2D, uC, AGT, BoA and one more Rabid/3Q move on up to gold
You forgot about iS, probly cause we haven't yet played you, but we've had close matches/beaten all of those clans.

About the idea, I think the 2 divisions would be cool and add some variety to things in TFC's waning days. The ladder system would be cool too but only if matches were still scheduled and there was a clear cut set of rules, none of this scheduling matches when you can play them, same times still and schedules made out, but just the ladder format for placement. I still think 2 divisions would be better, but either way, something has to change.

[[RiCE]Doc.JF]

i would like ladder format if times/days were set also

Doc

[SoulCutter]

You forgot about iS, probly cause we haven't yet played you, but we've had close matches/beaten all of those clans.


Shut up newbie, I for one would prefer staying in the lower division if it gets split into 2.

[DarthGreg]

even if you merge the divisions you are still going to play the same 5 clans all the time if you are at the top of the ladder.. I really dont see any clans in silver taking on any team in gold. but I still agree with combining divisions. If you could see in Captain forums me and Dys are the big pushers for a 1 ladder system but none of the leagues want to go with it
From my experience in TDA over the past month I have to say I'm skeptical that there are even 5 clans left that play this game.

Also I'll tag this on: a league that tries to give it's clans the most fair matches will also give them the most stagnant schedules. The question is where you draw the line between fairness and variety.

[Fusion]

i think the problem is that the admins have disbanded and/or are inactive as well.

[unfy]

I support this thread.

[janordy]

This is second time Ive agreed with Sutter, im starting to get scared, someone hold me.

[rabidkevin]

From my experience in TDA over the past month I have to say I'm skeptical that there are even 5 clans left that play this game.


This is true.. even my own clan is guilty of excessive forfeits (only in TFL though) and league admins never enforce the rules, or follow their division very closely. Teams should be forced to go inactive after 2 forfeits within a month or whatever the rules state.. sure it sucks that there are WAY less clans, but the ones that struggle need to be removed from the schedules until 1) they get enough active people or 2) call it quits so the clans that do field actually get to play a match, and also have the possiblity of filling the gaps with 1 or 2 players from a clan that always forfeits. Admins are directly responsible for keeping league play alive, healthy, and active.

[Quattro]

You forgot about iS, probly cause we haven't yet played you, but we've had close matches/beaten all of those clans.

About the idea, I think the 2 divisions would be cool and add some variety to things in TFC's waning days. The ladder system would be cool too but only if matches were still scheduled and there was a clear cut set of rules, none of this scheduling matches when you can play them, same times still and schedules made out, but just the ladder format for placement. I still think 2 divisions would be better, but either way, something has to change.
and iS

[Quattro]

Teams should be forced to go inactive after 2 forfeits within a month or whatever the rules state.. sure it sucks that there are WAY less clans, but the ones that struggle need to be removed from the schedules until 1) they get enough active people or 2) call it quits so the clans that do field actually get to play a match, and also have the possiblity of filling the gaps with 1 or 2 players from a clan that always forfeits. Admins are directly responsible for keeping league play alive, healthy, and active.


Well said kevin.

[AGT-Shady]

Also I'll tag this on: a league that tries to give it's clans the most fair matches will also give them the most stagnant schedules. The question is where you draw the line between fairness and variety.

And that's the point, especially at this late stage of the game. The upper tier players have flocked to the few upper tier clans left, so they have a dominant advantage over everyone else. Whether or not a team that's going to stomp me 9 times out of 10 is having fun or not is hardly my concern, if we're not on the same level, we're just not. If that means they play the same 3 clans who also happen to be on their level so be it, if they want variety they can disperse all over what's left of TFC land and we can have 4 times as many "top" clans.

I wouldn't expect them to of course, they should be allowed to play with whomever they like, and especially their friends, but it's the trade off DG is talking about.

[Sutterkane]

This is second time Ive agreed with Sutter, im starting to get scared, someone hold me.

I'm actually not as bad as some make me out to be =D









...well, sometimes I am.

[MightyMouse]

STA 5v5 just got rid of Platinum, and we had our first taste against a STA 5v5 Gold team, it was increadibly boring as the skill level difference was evident.

[Dogysamich]

STA 5v5 just got rid of Platinum


.... so THAT's what happened when i left the internet. :/

I cant take a break from the internet without something dangerous happening.

[Bomber]

In STA all of the 9v9 admins have discussed the merging of divisions over the last few months, and copper was the first to drop. I would expect silver to merge with gold in the next week or 2, and bring the bronze teams to silver.

We look forward to new tfc mods and hope that it will bring new blood into the system to give things a "jumpstart".

[BoSlim]

Shut up newbie, I for one would prefer staying in the lower division if it gets split into 2.
thats cause you're a baby soulcutter.

[eminent]

id agree with MM that when you have a gold clan playing silver clans over and over there comes a time that it just becomes unfun and then players from both teams dont even want to show up. Lets face it people play this game now usually because they either like the people they play with and enjoy it or they think they have a legitimate shot at winning week in week out, not that that really matters anymore but who shows up to loose. or it becomes a waste of time. i think everyones just gonna have to suck it up for now, though id agree with shady for the most part too.

[dys]

Things wouldn't really change much for the higher level teams if this proposal was implemented. They currently play the other high level teams, they would continue to do so in a single ladder format, with the occassional silver matchup - which IS fun once in a while. But for the most part, if clans of similar ranking are scheduled against eachother then nothing really changes.

That's why I say a newer method of scheduling is needed. Basing it off of win streaks isn't good anymore.

[SoulCutter]

Yeah :(

[H-Town]

Move to a team system instead of a clan system. The remaining players can play, the teams would be more even, and you have more matches.

[Quattro]

Move to a team system instead of a clan system. The remaining players can play, the teams would be more even, and you have more matches.
I dont get it.

[b-buddy]

In STA all of the 9v9 admins have discussed the merging of divisions over the last few months, and copper was the first to drop. I would expect silver to merge with gold in the next week or 2, and bring the bronze teams to silver.

We look forward to new tfc mods and hope that it will bring new blood into the system to give things a "jumpstart".


Why does it have to be in a few weeks... Just do it already... It isnt hard. Merge Silver and Gold. 15+5=even 20 no byes. Or drop lowest team in Silver to Bronze and have no byes in Bronze but 1 in Silver. Just do it already. Who cares if TDA is scheduled versus tKd this game is coughing up blood so to speak and itll get worse if we dont get some kind of variety soon.

[Quattro]

I just looked at TFL Season 7 Week 1...

Interesting, 78 Clans played matches that week in TFL alone.

AND THERE WAS AN EQUAL NUMBER OF CLANS IN EACH DIVISION

Get your head out of your asses people! lolz

Divisions need to be divded equally, not necessarily merged..... but atleast throw another 6 clans in gold, then have bronze cough up 8 or 9 to silver. Thats the simplest way to do it, I dont see why it takes weeks, or all this humminh and hawwing. Get on that shit!

Perhaps all gold clans should request a bye this week until its achieved ?

[dys]

The same shit that always happens would just happen again, teams would move up/down in their respective ladders and things would be uneven. Merging all teams together is the best way to get over the repetitive shortcomings.

edit - Just an FYI for anyone keeping score, STA was in the process of making things happen prior to this thread.

[leg]

You should just have RES/TDA/r disban and filter themselves throughout silver/bronze.

[dys]

http://tfc.sta-league.org/


Kudos STA!

[Sutterkane]

Indeed, very well done by sta. For the first time that I can remember, sta actually has fewer divisions than tfl. To those of you crying about mismatches, let's all remember when titanium and platium were merged in their seperate instances into the lower division. Teams adapted with no problems.

[Telos]

Also, iS won last weeks Silver Title shot, so they will play this weeks Gold Title Match.


rofl, what a welcome to "gold"

[MightyMouse]

terrible move STA, what Happend to INC, they seemed to disapear in the merger

[Janus]

if only we could move everyone back into a OGL type league and it would be fine... kinda.

[[RiCE]Doc.JF]

let's just scratch everything and start over - new clans for every body!

Doc

[Telos]

I actually think that would be kinda fun.

[SoulCutter]

Excellent, bring it on RES.

[PHISH]

A silver team will knock off some gold teams, that always happens, I remember getting that first opportunity when we moved up from "titanium" and knocking off NULL who was on their way down. There's not as huge a talent gap as its made out to be, and talent isn't the major discrepency really. It's like a WAC team in football like boise state versus a big conference team, their starters can usually match up head to head but there's just less depth in the roster, if they use it wisely they can beat the "superior" teams. Anyway playing against the top talent always makes you learn and improve the fastest, will be good to shake things up a bit.

[Vr_]

if only we could move everyone back into a OGL type league and it would be fine... kinda.


so true.
i remeber back in the day when I was in wolf and we were just starting out. i ALWAYS wanted to play KiN but it would never happen in regular leagues.
[and the day we did finally get to play KiN, in OGL mind you, we did get raped but my god..... i got to play KiN!!!]


i dont know why lower level clans arent like that? dont they want to move up? dont they want to get better? when their clans go under and they inquire to a top team its no wonder we have no idea who they are or their background.
then they get pissed.


i hate to say it now but I kind of miss OGL.

[Craven]

the bigger plus is that ED and 30+ made it to silver

its all about the perseverensce!!! ;)



any cheap shots at {ED} must be cleared by me first

this announcement was brought to you by the letter q

continue and have a nice day


I didnt run it by BRD first :eek:

[schtoofa]

so true.
i remeber back in the day when I was in wolf and we were just starting out. i ALWAYS wanted to play KiN but it would never happen in regular leagues.
[and the day we did finally get to play KiN, in OGL mind you, we did get raped but my god..... i got to play KiN!!!]


i dont know why lower level clans arent like that? dont they want to move up? dont they want to get better? when their clans go under and they inquire to a top team its no wonder we have no idea who they are or their background.
then they get pissed.


i hate to say it now but I kind of miss OGL.

this post kinda reminds me of something foreveR would've said

[AGT-Shady]

so true.
i remeber back in the day when I was in wolf and we were just starting out and Virginia Tech was raping all of college football. i ALWAYS wanted to play KiN but it would never happen in regular leagues.
[and the day we did finally get to play KiN, in OGL mind you, we did get raped but my god..... i got to play KiN AND Vick crushed Miami!!!]


i dont know why lower level clans arent like that? dont they want to move up and dominate tha ACC like the Hokies? dont they want to get better? when their clans go under and they inquire to a top team its no wonder we have no idea who they are or their background.
then they get pissed.


i hate to say it now but I kind of miss OGL and my days at Virginia Tech.

^Now it sounds like something foreveR woulda said.

[BoSlim]

rofl, what a welcome to "gold"
hey don't count us out already Telos!

[Jarek]

ok now that the merge is down, i demand a pure month of nothing but cz2/pipezone so AGT can win the gold title

[schtoofa]

lol shady

[DarthGreg]

You can't compare TFC to professional or collegiate sports. In those arenas everyone is performing as well as they can in an effort to compete, in TFC people compete according to how much effort they're willing to put in. That's why good players leave lower clans to join gold ones, it's not much fun to play with people who aren't as competitive as you. That's also why inactive gold vets join lower division clans. Barring a draft-style league you aren't going to see a redistribution of talent in this game, ever.

[Loser]

so true.
i remeber back in the day when I was in wolf and we were just starting out. i ALWAYS wanted to play KiN but it would never happen in regular leagues.
[and the day we did finally get to play KiN, in OGL mind you, we did get raped but my god..... i got to play KiN!!!]

i understand this completely. when [OpM!] was still in OGL, we challenged Zt, then at the top of their form. the maps were 2mesa3 and redgiant, and i was playing engy. the flag was almost never in the flagroom, but i stayed in there trying to keep it clear. i clearly remember watching in awe as the Zt medics double conc'ed up to the flagstand: smooth, clean, and in perfect control. they made it look so easy. a couple of times i just stood there and watched, saying 'man, that is really something' to myself. and then 'oh yeah, shoot them!" yeah, we were beyond merely 'owned' but hey! i got to play Zt!

OGL was fun for awhile, but when the forfeit to match ratio went over 75%, there wasn't much point.

[Sponge]

i dont know why lower level clans arent like that? dont they want to move up? dont they want to get better? when their clans go under and they inquire to a top team its no wonder we have no idea who they are or their background.


this paragraph sucks in a big way.

so does this move (i'll add "for me and many others"). this isn't three years ago, many people don't give a shit about challenging themselves or playing in a WOLF vs KiN match. speaking as someone who'd be at the bottom of the new gold, going into a match knowing that i probably won't have a chance of winning isn't fun in the least. if i lose - suspicion confirmed - i get that feeling i just wasted two hours of my time. if i win, great, but that elation won't even last me until the end of the next day and i won't be telling myself "yeah but remember last week!" after next week's shaming.

[Vr_]

this paragraph sucks in a big way.

so does this move (i'll add "for me and many others"). this isn't three years ago, many people don't give a shit about challenging themselves or playing in a WOLF vs KiN match. speaking as someone who'd be at the bottom of the new gold, going into a match knowing that i probably won't have a chance of winning isn't fun in the least. if i lose - suspicion confirmed - i get that feeling i just wasted two hours of my time. if i win, great, but that elation won't even last me until the end of the next day and i won't be telling myself "yeah but remember last week!" after next week's shaming.


i agree with that. but not the bold part. i know losing isnt fun but no one is ever going to win every single match out there. and it looks like when you win a match it doesnt matter that much either.

[OhGr]

I never understood why people play in a league to be competitive but yet don't want to fine tune their Playing style?

To me it's like playing a sport for fun with no desire to "shine" wtf is the point and why are you wasting time doing it?

I know the counter arguements to all that but still think for a second about that. You join a league to compete, then in turn just play to play and fuck off and be half assed? Regardless of how many years TFC has been going regardless of the concept you "play for fun" it all can be put to an end by someone saying...

GO PUB! you wanna play "for fun" then go pub.

[Sponge]

i agree with that. but not the bold part. i know losing isnt fun but no one is ever going to win every single match out there. and it looks like when you win a match it doesnt matter that much either.

the thing is, of the 15 clans now in gold, there are two that are at my clan's level, five or six that we'd lose to 75+% of the time, and the rest are just lol. i enjoy winning as long as it's not by some ridiculous margin, but winning a match i normally wouldn't doesn't "cover" losing 7 of 10 or something. i also play to win, but that means that losing most matches in a given stretch is frustrating.

[MoonGuardian]

Not going to lie, I would love to have my ass handed to me playing TDA. ( KHR just made it up to gold).
Lets be frank, it used to be "you wont get any better unless you play better people" fair enough. but now who cares? lmao.

I have an affiliation with my clan members. Something like 5 years with some of them. I'm there to play with them. All I ask for now, is clans just play the matches. Beat the hell out of a team two rounds in a row. but don't go lame on them. Just play.

[PHISH]

It is possible to just have fun playing with your buds without needing a 'defeatest' attitude.

[_loche]

tfc isnt about having fun phish you MORON

[BlackThoughT]

Lets be frank, it used to be "you wont get any better unless you play better people" fair enough. but now who cares? lmao.

I have an affiliation with my clan members. Something like 5 years with some of them. I'm there to play with them. All I ask for now, is clans just play the matches. Beat the hell out of a team two rounds in a row. but don't go lame on them. Just play.

he speaks the truth

now with 4 teams in 1a... is TFL next?

[dys]

It seems to make sense to everyone but the TFL.

[MoonGuardian]

a number of clan members and me included, rather enjoy practices, then matches some times. haha, less stress. Its more like, a clean, organized, fun and laughs evening of fun. *shrug*

[wraithforger]

It seems to make sense to everyone but the TFL.
It has been and is under discussion. We're not looking to just 'even out' the teams in the divisions. There are more factors involved which requires more discussion.