come out with your hands up

[q]

http://duggmirror.com/politics/Bush_Moves_Toward_Martial_Law_2/

[Rand]

If he signed it into law, doesn't that mean that the Congess approved it and passed it onto him? Was there a vote of the full Congress that the rest of us are unaware of? Or all of our voted in officials unaware of what they voted on?

[MidnightStalker]

Lol, such a stealthy move that Congress passed it and some shady journalist knew about it!

On June 22, 2006, the Congress modified the Insurrection Act as part of the 2007 Defense Appropriations Bill. Section 1076 of the new law changes Sec. 333 of the "Insurrection Act," and widens the President's ability to deploy troops within the United States to enforce the laws. Under this act, the President may also deploy troops as a police force during a natural disaster, epidemic, serious public health emergency, terrorist attack, or other condition, when the President determines that the authorities of the state are incapable of maintaining public order. The bill also modified Sec. 334 of the Insurrection Act, giving the President authority to order the dispersal of either insurgents or "those obstructing the enforcement of the laws."

Also, the John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007 doesn't do anything of what he was talking about.
The fiscal 2007 National Defense Authorization Act provides more than $530 billion to maintain the military in the shape it must be to win the war on terror.

President Bush signed the bill, officially called the John Warner National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2007, during a small ceremony in the Oval Office this morning. Warner is Virginia’s senior senator and the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

The act provides $462.8 billion in budget authority for the department. Senate and House conferees added the $70 billion defense supplemental budget request to the act, so overall, the act authorizes $532.8 billion for fiscal 2007.

The $70 billion supplemental provision covers the cost of ongoing operations in Iraq, Afghanistan and the Horn of Africa, as well as other expenses affiliated with the war on terrorism. The supplemental funding also provides $23.8 billion to help “reset” Army and Marine Corps equipment, which is wearing out faster than originally planned because of the war.

The supplemental measure further provides $2.1 billion for the Joint Improvised Explosive Device Task Force, $1.7 billion to train and equip Iraqi security forces and $1.5 billion to help train and equip Afghan security forces.

The authorization act provides a 2.2 percent pay raise for American servicemembers, effective Jan. 1. It continues the Army at its end-strength of 512,400 and raises the Marine Corps end-strength to 180,000. The Army National Guard end strength is set at 350,000.

The act authorizes the expansion of eligibility for the Tricare health care program to all members of the Selected Reserve while in a non-active-duty status and their families. Payment is set at 28 percent of the premium amount established by DoD. The act also prohibits any increase in Tricare Prime and Tricare Select Reserve in fiscal 2007.

The act authorizes $36.6 billion for operations and maintenance costs, including $700 million for body armor and $149.5 million for ammunition.

The act authorizes construction of seven warships, including the next-generation destroyer and the amphibious assault replacement ship. The act also provides $794 million in advance procurement authority for the next generation aircraft carrier, the CVN-21.

The act sets aside $4.4 billion for 22 C-17 Globemaster III airlifters, $1.4 billion for procurement of 14 Marine V-22 Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft and $1.5 billion for 43 MH-60R/S helicopters.

The act authorizes $841 million for 122 Stryker combat vehicles, including $41.5 million to replace combat losses. The act also provides $1.4 billion for 20 F/A-22 Raptor fighters and reduced funding for the F-35 Lightning II fighter due to schedule delays.
Oh yeah, this was signed in such a "private oval office ceremony" that there are actually pictures of it!
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/10/images/20061017-1_d-0208-2-515h.jpg, for example.

The Military Commissions Act of 2006 has already been argued about in the other thread on this forum. Refer to that.

[Zogo]

the streamlining of the entire military in this way is not good.

[VeeKaChu]

Also, the John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007 doesn't do anything of what he was talking about.

Umm, yeah, it does. I read about this earleir on another site, and went and looked it up- you can do the same- but there is definitely a provision for using the US military to impose and enforce martial law if the president deems it necessary.

But the Constitution is just a "damned piece of paper" (says your king), right?

[MidnightStalker]

If you're having trouble differentiating a president from a king, I'm pretty dubious of your own research after I've already done my own.

[VeeKaChu]

It's doesn't concern me what your research reveals, the actual law states exactly what the OP says it does. And what's your point about pictures? No one said it was a "secret" signing, just a "private" one.

[MidnightStalker]

I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to when you say the OP, but my research should very well concern you. Why? Because my research contradicts exactly everything you've stated. So if you can't respond to it, it simply shows you know you're wrong or are unwilling to accept you're wrong.

So what exactly does John Warner National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2007 (H.R.5122) do? Already, the word "fiscal" immediately implies it relates financial matters, and has nothing to do with presidency control over his use of military within the US, as you imply. So, again, what does it do?

"The Act authorizes funding for the defense of the United States and its interests abroad, for military construction, for national security-related energy programs, and for maritime security-related transportation programs."

Also:

To authorize appropriations for fiscal year 2007 for military activities of the Department of Defense, for military construction, and for defense activities of the Department of Energy, to prescribe military personnel strengths for such fiscal year, and for other purposes.


So that explains it. More specifically, my first post explained it even further in detail. But what exactly does the CBO have to say abuot the bill?


H.R. 5122 would authorize the appropriation of about $526 billion for fiscal year 2007. . . .

H.R. 5122 contains provisions that would both increase and decrease outlays from direct spending, including provisions affecting military retirement, health care for military retirees and reservists, and housing for active-duty servicemembers and their families. H.R. 5122 also would allow the Department of Defense (DoD) to increase sales of certain materials from the strategic stockpile and require the transfer of unobligated balances from the stockpile fund. Overall, CBO estimates that H.R. 5122 would increase direct spending by
$150 million in 2007, $215 million over the 2007-2011 period, and $403 million over the 2007-2016 period.

In addition, H.R. 5122 would reduce federal revenues, primarily by modifying the eligibility requirements for the TRICARE Reserve Select program. CBO estimates that H.R. 5122 would decrease revenues by $3 million over the 2007-2011 period and by $22 million over the 2007-2016 period.


You may view the bill, in full, here (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h109-5122).

[VeeKaChu]

The OP I referred to means "Original Post" in the thread. And since you didn't bother to read your own link (though you again claim that it doesn't say what it actually says), I'll quote the relevant portion from it-

SEC. 1076. USE OF THE ARMED FORCES IN MAJOR PUBLIC EMER-
GENCIES.
(a) USE OF THE ARMED FORCES AUTHORIZED.--
(1) IN GENERAL.--Section 333 of title 10, United States
Code, is amended to read as follows:
`` 333. Major public emergencies; interference with State and
Federal law
``(a) USE OF ARMED FORCES IN MAJOR PUBLIC EMERGENCIES.--
(1) The President may employ the armed forces, including the
National Guard in Federal service, to--
``(A) restore public order and enforce the laws of the United
States when, as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or
other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or
incident, or other condition in any State or possession of the
United States, the President determines that--
``(i) domestic violence has occurred to such an extent
that the constituted authorities of the State or possession
are incapable of maintaining public order; and
``(ii) such violence results in a condition described in
paragraph (2); or
``(B) suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic
violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy if such insurrec-
tion, violation, combination, or conspiracy results in a condition
described in paragraph (2).
``(2) A condition described in this paragraph is a condition
that-- ``(A) so hinders the execution of the laws of a State or
possession, as applicable, and of the United States within that
State or possession, that any part or class of its people is
deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named
in the Constitution and secured by law, and the constituted
authorities of that State or possession are unable, fail, or refuse
to protect that right, privilege, or immunity, or to give that
protection; or
H. R. 5122--323

``(B) opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the
United States or impedes the course of justice under those
laws.
``(3) In any situation covered by paragraph (1)(B), the State
shall be considered to have denied the equal protection of the
laws secured by the Constitution.
``(b) NOTICE TO CONGRESS.--The President shall notify Congress
of the determination to exercise the authority in subsection (a)(1)(A)
as soon as practicable after the determination and every 14 days
thereafter during the duration of the exercise of that authority.''.
(2) PROCLAMATION TO DISPERSE.--Section 334 of such title
is amended by inserting ``or those obstructing the enforcement
of the laws'' after ``insurgents''.
(3) HEADING AMENDMENT.--The heading of chapter 15 of
such title is amended to read as follows:
``CHAPTER 15--ENFORCEMENT OF THE LAWS TO
RESTORE PUBLIC ORDER''.
(4) CLERICAL AMENDMENTS.--(A) The tables of chapters
at the beginning of subtitle A of title 10, United States Code,
and at the beginning of part I of such subtitle, are each
amended by striking the item relating to chapter 15 and
inserting the following new item:
``15 Enforcement of the Laws to Restore Public Order ....................................... 331''.
(B) The table of sections at the beginning of chapter 15
of such title is amended by striking the item relating to sections
333 and inserting the following new item:
``333. Major public emergencies; interference with State and Federal law.''.
(b) PROVISION OF SUPPLIES, SERVICES, AND EQUIPMENT.--
(1) IN GENERAL.--Chapter 152 of such title is amended
by adding at the end the following new section:
`` 2567. Supplies, services, and equipment: provision in major
public emergencies
``(a) PROVISION AUTHORIZED.--In any situation in which the
President determines to exercise the authority in section
333(a)(1)(A) of this title, the President may direct the Secretary
of Defense to provide supplies, services, and equipment to persons
affected by the situation.
``(b) COVERED SUPPLIES, SERVICES, AND EQUIPMENT.--The sup-
plies, services, and equipment provided under this section may
include food, water, utilities, bedding, transportation, tentage,
search and rescue, medical care, minor repairs, the removal of
debris, and other assistance necessary for the immediate preserva-
tion of life and property.
``(c) LIMITATIONS.--(1) Supplies, services, and equipment may
be provided under this section--
``(A) only to the extent that the constituted authorities
of the State or possession concerned are unable to provide
such supplies, services, and equipment, as the case may be;
and ``(B) only until such authorities, or other departments or
agencies of the United States charged with the provision of
such supplies, services, and equipment, are able to provide
such supplies, services, and equipment.
H. R. 5122--324

``(2) The Secretary may provide supplies, services, and equip-
ment under this section only to the extent that the Secretary
determines that doing so will not interfere with military prepared-
ness or ongoing military operations or functions.
``(d) INAPPLICABILITY OF CERTAIN AUTHORITIES.--The provision
of supplies, services, or equipment under this section shall not
be subject to the provisions of section 403(c) of the Robert T.
Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (42 U.S.C.
5170b(c)).''.
(2) CLERICAL AMENDMENT.--The table of sections at the
beginning of such chapter is amended by adding at the end
the following new item:
``2567. Supplies, services, and equipment: provision in major public emergencies''.
(c) CONFORMING AMENDMENT.--Section 12304(c)(1) of such title
is amended by striking ``No unit'' and all that follows through
``subsection (b),'' and inserting ``Except to perform any of the func-
tions authorized by chapter 15 or section 12406 of this title or
by subsection (b), no unit or member of a reserve component may
be ordered to active duty under this section''.

But keep saying that it doesn't say it. That's the best defense the Bush apologists have lately when confronted by the facts that "King George" wants to destroy America.

[Zogo]

If you're having trouble differentiating a president from a king, I'm pretty dubious of your own research after I've already done my own.

I asked in another thread a few weeks ago what distinguishes a king from a president. not surprisingly no one answered because bush is attaining more kingly authority every year.

[MidnightStalker]

OK, so there is a small provision, out of a very large bill, to declares a president of the U.S. may "employ the armed forces, including the National Guard in Federal service" during a national crisis so long as the president "shall notify Congress of the determination to exercise the authority . . . as soon as practicable after the determination and every 14 days thereafter during the duration of the exercise of that authority." It doesn't state, however, "detention camps are being constructed right under our noses, camps designed for anyone who resists the foreign and domestic agenda of the Bush administration," as the article would have you believe.

"Despite the unprecedented and shocking nature of this act, there has been no outcry in the American media, and little reaction from our elected officials in Congress." Why? It's because the voter-elected representatives that is Congress passed this bill for the President.

Also, what's the difference between a president and a king? To answer your question Zogo, a king refers to the head of state in monarch. A monarch is a hereditary based sovereign (that is, you are born into power). A king holds absolute power. A king will also hold a life term. Conversely, a president, in the United States, is a voter-elected head of state. The President holds a four year term, with possibility of no more than one reelection (consisting of also four years). The president is not born into power, nor does he hold a life tenure, as stated previously. The President does not hold absolute power either. Power is devided among three federal branches: Legislative (Congress), Executive (includes the President), and Judiciary (the Supreme Court). The power, ultimately, however, lies in the people, hence the name democracy (demo: group of people + cracy: government).

[Zogo]

A monarch is a hereditary based sovereign (that is, you are born into power). A king holds absolute power.

not all kings are born into power.

The President does not hold absolute power either. Power is devided among three federal branches: Legislative (Congress), Executive (includes the President), and Judiciary (the Supreme Court). The power, ultimately, however, lies in the people, hence the name democracy (demo: group of people + cracy: government).

there are already copious amounts of instances where bush has superseded the conventional three branch system (and claims to be able to in the future.)

[Tone-Loc]

It is obvious that this whole deal was because of the bitching and moaning about how Bush was responsible for the aftermath of Katrina. I hate defending this president, but I can't stand by and let hypocrisy be met with just more hyprocrisy.

Deciding that I would just search this very forum for my ammo, I did a search on Katrina and did some scouring. It wasn't long I came across this thread...

http://forums.thecatacombs.net/showthread.php?t=89735&highlight=Katrina

within it is a post by Zogo (post #25), with a link to this Washington Post Article...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/05/AR2006080500732.html


You can see my response which was pretty much identical to the one I was going to make in this thread. I figured after seeing that new article posted here, kind of sqaushed the whole "private" label... which you can argue semantics, but that term was used specifically to imply it was done in an almost secret/under-our-noses type of manner.

If this was such a big deal then the radical left in Congress (who are apparently to the right of some on this forum... which I thought impossible) would have made an absolute shitstorm in the media about it. Jesus Christ, people... there isn't a conspiracy in EVERY move this president makes. Why would you afford him so much credit? Oh I forgot, Cheney is the true president. :rolleyes:

[PHISH]

Why would mainstream media outcry be the barometer for determing whether we should be concerned about increases in presidential power or not? Look at the repeal of habeus corpus- you can't trust politicians to make the right decisions, they are too influenced by worries about how their votes could be painted against them. Right now, anything not expanding the presidents power is painted as weak on 'terrorism' or helping the terrorists... Remember, the terrorists want to kill your family and I'm protecting you so give me this power. Don't you like America? Good boy.

[Tone-Loc]

I agree the media shouldn't be a barometer, as they should only report fact not opinion laced "fact." But I am pretty sure there are plenty of examples of members of congress using the media as a bullhorn to the public at large... (Patriot Act... Partial birth abortion ban... etc...).

Also I totally agree about Congress and government in general. I have always been a firm believe of the axiom that "people shouldn't fear their government, the government should fear the people."

Are you referring to the Military Commissions Act just recently signed as repealing habeas corpus? Of course that only pertains to non-US citizens deemed an "enemy combatant," but I guess that's no real distinction to many.

And I am pretty sure there are other threads devoted to that topic.

[Zogo]

If this was such a big deal then the radical left in Congress (who are apparently to the right of some on this forum...which I thought impossible) would have made an absolute shitstorm in the media about it. Jesus Christ, people... there isn't a conspiracy in EVERY move this president makes. Why would you afford him so much credit? Oh I forgot, Cheney is the true president. :rolleyes:

the average person complaining about bush not doing enough on katrina wouldn't care if bush was a dictator in some instances..and most are very ignorant regarding constitutional issues.

the whole bush-katrina issue is odd. on one hand you have bush and cronies bragging about how they've defended the country (yes, the entire thing not just DC) since 9/11. so they've taken full credit in that area. if natural disasters aren't a national gov't then why do things like FEMA exist?
not that I really cared in the first place anyway..we can't expect gov't at this point in time to be able to prevent disasters like this.

katrina was a good illustration that demonstrated the inability of any form of gov't to solve all problems. and the more intrusive and nanny like the gov't becomes the more people will be conditioned to sit on their butt and wait for GWB to fly in with a superman cape on and personally rescue them.

PS is this really a conspiracy? everything is out in the open..it's more like a hostile takeover.

[AntioK]

haha what a creepy law......


This all reminds me of that quote from the John Titor site, something along the lines of "Don't worry, by 2008 you'll realize the world you were living in is over"

Still, out of all the moves i have disagreed with by Bush, none of these crazy laws have yet to impact my life personally, and maybe it's not so much president bush im worried about, maybe its the nut that gets elected in 20 years during an unstable economy with all these crazy powers that dubya put into place.

[Loser]

Are you referring to the Military Commissions Act just recently signed as repealing habeas corpus? Of course that only pertains to non-US citizens deemed an "enemy combatant," but I guess that's no real distinction to many.

actually, you must be deemed by a military tribunal under the UCMJ as an "alien unlawful enemy combatant" to have most of the provisions of the military commissions act applied to you (ie, no right of habeas corpus). there is still due process, but civilian courts are not involved.

note that the geneva conventions stipulate that certain classes of combatants may be shot out of hand.

[Zogo]

maybe its the nut that gets elected in 20 years during an unstable economy with all these crazy powers that dubya put into place.

yes, that's one area most people are oblivious to. today's republicans that are wildly applauding bush for upgrading his power every 6 months would've shat themselves (and did) when clinton was doing the same things 10 years ago.

[PHISH]

haha what a creepy law......


This all reminds me of that quote from the John Titor site, something along the lines of "Don't worry, by 2008 you'll realize the world you were living in is over"

Still, out of all the moves i have disagreed with by Bush, none of these crazy laws have yet to impact my life personally, and maybe it's not so much president bush im worried about, maybe its the nut that gets elected in 20 years during an unstable economy with all these crazy powers that dubya put into place.

Of course, that is the goal. As long as something isn't directly impacting the large majorities of american people daily lives (our football games, our costs of food, our transportation, etc), we will not bat an eye at it. That's what governments count on to achieve more power.

It's almost in the semblance of:
'First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist, so I said nothing. Then they came for the Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat, so I did nothing. Then came the trade unionists, but I was not a trade unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I did little. Then when they came for me, there was no one left to stand up for me.'

[PHISH]

Hey at least its legal now.. as long as its not affecting me, whats the problem?

The Horrors of 'Extraordinary Rendition'
By Maher Arar

Editors Note: Canadian citizen Maher Arar, who is barred from entering the United States, delivered his acceptance speech for the Letelier-Moffitt International Human Rights Award in a pre-recorded videotape. This is a transcript of his speech, which was viewed at the award ceremony hosted by the Institute for Policy Studies on Oct. 18, 2006 in Washington, DC.

Hello my name is Maher Arar. Sorry I could not join you for today's ceremony.

All Center for Constitutional Rights Staff and I are humbled to have been chosen this year's recipient for the Letelier-Moffitt International Human Rights Award. This award means a tremendous amount to us. It means that there are still Americans out there who value our struggle for justice.

It means that there are Americans out there who are truly concerned about the future of America. We now know that my story is not a unique one. Over the past two years we have heard from many other people who were, who have been kidnapped, unlawfully detained, tortured and eventually released without being charged with any crime in any country.

JFK Stopover

My nightmare began on September 26, 2002. I was transiting through New York airport, JFK Airport, when they asked me to wait in a waiting area. I found that to be strange. Shortly after, some FBI officials came to see me and they asked me whether, I was willing to be interviewed.

My first immediate reaction was to ask for a lawyer and I was surprised when they told me that I had no right to a lawyer because I was not an American citizen.

Then I asked for a phone call, I wanted to call my family to let them know what was going on. And they just ignored my request.

Then they told me, we only have couple of questions for you and we'll let you go. So I agreed. I had nothing to hide. And the interrogation started. Soon after, you know, they asked me about people I knew. It was deeper, until the interrogation was going deeper and deeper and deeper.

During this time, they played mind games with me. They would sometimes insult me; say to me something like you're smart. Other times they would accuse me of being dumb.

And, I repeatedly ask for a lawyer, to make a phone call. They always ignored my question.

The interrogation that day lasted about four hours with the FBI officials and another four hours with immigration. At the end of that day, instead of sending me back to Canada, they shackled and chained me and sent me to another, another terminal in the airport where I stayed overnight and in that place, in that room they kept me in, the lights were, were always on. There was no bed in that room and I could not sleep that night.

The next day another set of interrogations started. This time it was about, they asked me about political opinions--I answered openly, I didn't try to hide my political opinions. The asked me about Iraq. They asked me about Palestine and so many other issues. And they also, if I remember correctly, asked me about my emails and some other questions.

Going to Syria

And they told me that day we are about to decide about your fate. At the end of that day, surprisingly, one of the immigration officers came and asked me to volunteer to go to Syria. I said to them: why do you want me to go to Syria, I've never been there for 17 years. And they say, "You are special interest." Of course, back then I did not know what this expression meant. But it was clear that the Americans, the officer did not want me to go to Canada.

When he insisted, I said, let me go back to Switzerland. That was my point of departure before I arrived at JFK and he refused. Eventually they took me into the Metropolitan Detention Center, a federal prison, where they kept me for about 12 days. During this time I was interviewed for six hours by INS. It was a very exhaustive interview from 9PM to like around 3AM in the morning. When I asked them to, during this interview to go, to allow me to go back to my cell to perform my prayer, they refused, completely refused.

Also during my stay at the Metropolitan Detention Center I could clearly see that I was being treated differently from other prisoners. For example, they didn't give me toothpaste they would allow me to go for recreation for about a week. They always ignored my demand for making a phone call. Eventually they allowed me to make a phone call. Up until that time, which was a week after I was arrested, no one in my family knew where I was. My wife thought I was disappeared, I was killed. No one knew exactly what happened, until I informed my mother-in-law that I was arrested.

Eventually on October 8th, against my will, they took me out of my cell. They basically read the pieces of document to me saying, that we will be sending you Syria. And when I complained, I said to them, I did explain to you if I'm sent back I will be tortured and they, I remember, the INS person flipped a couple of pages in this document, to the end of this document and read to me a paragraph that I still remember until today, an extremely shocking statement she made to me.

She said something like: The INS is not the body or the agency that signed the Geneva Convention, convention against torture. For me what that really meant is we will send you to torture and we don't care.

So they put me on a private jet, which I found extremely strange. I was the only passenger on that, on that plane. Its a luxurious plane, with leather seats in it. My only preoccupation during this trip is how I could avoid torture. By then, I realized that they were exactly sending me to Syria for torture. And that became very clear to me. Then the plane flew to Washington from Washington it flew to Maine then to Rome, then from Rome to Jordan.

Shackled and Chained

And I remember on the plane I was most of the time I was shackled and chained except the last two hours when they offered me a shish-kabob dinner. Up until this day I do not, I cannot explain why they did that. If I was a dangerous person like they claimed in the beginning, why they would remove my chains and shackles the last two hours of the trip?

During also the trip, whenever I wanted to use the bathroom, one of the team members would go inside with me. Even though I complained that this was against my religious belief.

The plane landed in Jordan on three in the morning October 8th. And a couple of Jordanians were waiting, men, were waiting for me. They took me, they blindfolded me, they put me in a car and shortly after they started beating me on the back of my head. Whenever I complained about the beating they would actually start beating me more. So I just kept silent.

I stayed in Jordan for about 12 hours in a detention center. I still don't know what that place is.

I was always blindfolded whenever they took me from one cell to another or when they took me to see the doctor. But I felt something strange in that prison. I felt, what, that I used an elevator, which is quite strange for a Middle Eastern prison.

After 12 hours of detention, unlawful detention in Jordan I was eventually driven to Syria. And I just didn't want to believe that I was going to Syria. I always was hoping that someone, a miracle would happen--the Canadian government would intervene. A miracle would happen that would take me back to my country Canada.

I arrived in Syria that same day, at the end of the day and I was able to confirm that I was in fact in Syria after my blindfold was removed and I was able to see the pictures of the Syrian President. My feeling then is I just wanted to kill myself because I knew what was coming. I knew that the Americans, the American government send me there to be tortured.

Sometime later the interrogators came in. They started asking questions, routine questions at the beginning, but whenever I hesitated to answer their questions or whenever they thought I was lying one of them would threaten me with a chair, a metallic chair with no seats in it, only the frames. And back then I did not understand or I did not know how they would torture people with it. I later learned that from other prison inmates.

But the message was clear: if you don't speak quickly enough we will torture you. That day, the interrogation lasted about four hours. There was no physical beating; there was only verbal threats. Around midnight, they took me to the basement. In the basement, the guard opened a door for me, a metallic door. I could not believe my eyes. I looked at him and I said, what is that? He didn't answer. He just said to me: Enter.

The Grave

The cell was about three feet wide, six feet deep and about seven feet high. It was dark. There was no source of light in it. It was filthy. There were only two thin covers on the floor. I was naïve; I thought they would keep me in this place for one, two, maybe three days to put pressure on me. But this same place, the same cell that I later called the grave was my home 10 months and 10 days. The only light that came into the cell was from the ceiling, from the opening in the ceiling. There was a small spotlight and that's it.

Life in the cell was impossible. At the beginning--even though it was a filthy place, it was like a grave--I preferred to stay in that cell rather than being beaten. Whenever I heard the guards coming to open my door I would just think, you know, this is it for me that would be my last day.

The beating started the following day. Without no warning...(long pause as he fights tears) without no warning the interrogator came in with a cable. He asked me to open my right hand. I did open it. And he hit me strongly on my palm. It was so painful to the point that I forgot every moment I enjoyed in my life.

Torture

This moment is still vivid in my mind because it was the first I was ever beaten in my life. Then he asked me to open my left hand. He hit me again. And that one missed and hit my wrist. The pain from that hit lasted approximately six months. And then he would ask me questions. And I would have to answer very quickly. And then he would repeat the beating this time anywhere on my, on my body. Sometimes he would take me to a room where I could, where I was alone, I could hear other prisoners being tortured, severely tortured. I remember that I used to hear their screams. I just couldn't believe it, that human beings would do this to other human beings. And then they would take me back to the interrogation room. Again another set of questions, and the beating starts again and again. On the third day the beating was the worst. They beat me a lot with the cable. And they wanted me to confess that I have been to Afghanistan. This was a big surprise to me because even the Americans who interviewed me, the FBI officials who interviewed me, did not ask me that question. I ended up falsely confessing in order to stop the torture. The torture decreased in intensity. From that moment on they rarely used the cable. Mostly they slapped me on the face, they kicked me, they humiliated me all the time. The first 10 days of my stay in Syria was extremely harsh and during that period I found my cell to be a refuge. I didn't want to see their faces. But later on living in that cell was horrible. And just to give you an idea about how painful it is to stay in that place--I was ready after a couple of months, I was ready to sign any piece of document for me, not to be released, just to go to another place where it is fit for human being. During this time I wasn't aware that my wife launched a campaign with other human rights organizations like Amnesty International and others. My wife lobbied the media, she lobbied politicians and eventually I was released. The Syrians released me and they clearly stated through the ambassador in Washington that they did not find any links to terrorism. I was not charged in any country including Canada, United States, Jordan and Syria. Since my release I have been suffering from anxiety, constant fear, and depression. My life will never be the same again. But I promised myself one thing, that I will continue my quest for justice as long as I have a breath. What keeps me going is my faith, Americans like yourselves and the hope that one day our planet Earth will be free of tyranny, torture and injustice.

Maher Arar, a Canadian citizen, was a victim of the U.S. policy known as "extraordinary rendition." He was detained by U.S. officials in 2002, accused of terrorist links, and handed over to Syrian authorities, who tortured him. Arar is working with the Center for Constitutional Rights to appeal a case against the U.S. government that was dismissed on national security grounds.

[munks]

Hey at least its legal now.. as long as its not affecting me, whats the problem?
absolutely sickening, are these those family values i've heard the republicans go on so much about?

[MidnightStalker]

I wish I could write fiction as good as he could; well, except without all the grammar mistakes, that is.

[munks]

I wish I could write fiction as good as he could; well, except without all the grammar mistakes, that is.
yeah man it's fiction, you're right, there haven't been any discoveries of secret prisons ran by the CIA or any suspicion of the US using torture on anyone, ever.

oh and

Editors Note: Canadian citizen Maher Arar, who is barred from entering the United States, delivered his acceptance speech for the Letelier-Moffitt International Human Rights Award in a pre-recorded videotape. This is a transcript of his speech, which was viewed at the award ceremony hosted by the Institute for Policy Studies on Oct. 18, 2006 in Washington, DC.

it was a speech and i think i'll go out on a limb and say the guy probably doesn't speak great english if the US targeted him as a terrorist.

[Zogo]

there was a thread on extraordinary rendition a while ago..I can't find it right now though.

[N4P4LM]

I wish I could write fiction as good as he could; well, except without all the grammar mistakes, that is.

fiction simply because you dont want to believe it. ignorance is bliss, right?

[MidnightStalker]

Or maybe you're a blind believer? Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?

[munks]

Or maybe you're a blind believer? Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?
maybe your belief of a belief which is blind like a bat while blindness blinds the beliefs of the believing but not the blindness of the believers?

see i can make shit up too

[N4P4LM]

Or maybe you're a blind believer? Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?

after taking some time reading over http://www.maherarar.ca/ and various news releases, I have no reason to believe that the story is not true. i've seen nothing that would make me believe he's lying.

you said that his story is fiction. i say it's fact until proven otherwise, especially because he has a legal team to deal with his case.
(edit: that sounds a little foolish, cause obviously anyone could hire some lawyers to fight any made-up case that they want to. but he has no motivation to do this unless it's true.)

[Loser]

what i don't understand is why this guy got deported to syria. if he was a canadian citizen, and the US wouldn't let him in the country, why wasn't he sent back to canada? there was a news report from some time ago where i remember that a canadian citizen was deported to syria because canada wouldn't accept him after the US ruled him ineligible to enter this country. he ended up going to syria because that was where he was born.

is this the same guy? none of the accounts i skimmed seemed to mention why he ended up in syria.

does anybody know?

[N4P4LM]

Loser, look up Extraordinary Rendition...that should answer your questions.

[MidnightStalker]

maybe your belief of a belief which is blind like a bat while blindness blinds the beliefs of the believing but not the blindness of the believers?

see i can make shit up too
Maybe a random quoate passage from a random forum member of a story doesn't cut for me as a "reliable source of information."

[PHISH]

Maybe a random quoate passage from a random forum member of a story doesn't cut for me as a "reliable source of information."


So you dismiss it based on the fact you didn't look into it- awesome.
Do you accept your information corn fed as long as it's got a slapped on endorsement from a major news company?

It's been covered in CNN, CBS, etc but right now as this award was just given to this man it just got more attention. There's currently a huge scandal (in canada) w/ the Canadian police and American handling of the situation- and the most alarming thing is there's no denial from the american government that the events took place, rather both governments are playing blame /ignorance games.

Google's news search comes in handy for finding multiple news sources and viewpoints about the same topics...thats probably the best way to get an accurate depiction..
http://news.google.com/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&q=Maher%20Arar

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=extraordinary+rendition

[MidnightStalker]

So you dismiss it based on the fact you didn't look into it- awesome.
Do you accept your information corn fed as long as it's got a slapped on endorsement from a major news company?
Nope. Never said that. Would have been helpful to post a link or source of the information...

[Zogo]

Maybe a random quoate passage from a random forum member of a story doesn't cut for me as a "reliable source of information."

lol, this story was repeated by a lot of sources..but it was quickly suppressed.

here's ANOTHER being treated badly. accused of false and erroneous crimes..held indefinitely with no charges for 3+ years.

btw he's a US citizen too.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/security_padilla_dc

[munks]

Maybe a random quoate passage from a random forum member of a story doesn't cut for me as a "reliable source of information."
are you shitting me?

google it

Nope. Never said that. Would have been helpful to post a link or source of the information...
unbelievable

[N4P4LM]

munks, zogo, phish....it's alright. some people will just ignore things until it's too late and they're the ones being mistreated and abused in America "land of the free". Our government is straying from it's roots very rapidly, and it doesnt appear that the American people care or want to do much about it.

Just as an example of how ridiculous things have gotten (aside from the prominent and well-known situations that have already been showin in this thread), let me tell you about the International Socialist Organization(ISO) at Southern CT State University. I have recently finished my bachelors degree from this university, and I know a few people that are friends with members of the ISO. Our campus was monitored during the spring semester by G-Men (CIA, FBI, I dont really know?) who were watching every move that the students who participated in the ISO made Now, all of those students are on the terrorist watch list (or whatever you want to call it), why? because they expressed views that are different from what our government expresses.

[dys]

You think that's something new?

[N4P4LM]

You think that's something new?

i'd say it's gotten worse post-9/11. This organization/club had been around for years, and people in it never had problems flying before...now they get stopped and asked questions at airports.

[Tone-Loc]

I'd say as long as your ISO buddies openly support resistance by Iraqi's to US forces (meaning the support another country killing members of their own country's military), I would hope that they are on any and all watchlists.

If I were one of them, I would be thankful that I was merely only having to answer a few questions at the airport.

It's one thing to disagree with a war, but it's another to openly support the actions and efforts of an enemy.

[N4P4LM]

I'd say as long as your ISO buddies openly support resistance by Iraqi's to US forces (meaning the support another country killing members of their own country's military), I would hope that they are on any and all watchlists.

If I were one of them, I would be thankful that I was merely only having to answer a few questions at the airport.

It's one thing to disagree with a war, but it's another to openly support the actions and efforts of an enemy.

well that's the thing...they've never had any demonstrations like that...nothing that that supports resistance to US forces.

I might not agree with all of thier views, but I also don't think they should be on a terrorist watch list simply because they speak out against things that they consider wrong.

[Tone-Loc]

Speaking out against things that are wrong is one thing, like I said, and I would argue with anyone on behalf of the ISO for their right to free speech.

However, I got my information about their stance on Iraqi insurgents from the ISO's own website. Your friends may not have protested or done something overt yet in regards to that particular issue, but if they are affiliated with that organization, then they should expect to be put under scrutiny for the stance their organization takes.

[MidnightStalker]

are you shitting me?

google it


unbelievable
Wow you are dumber than I thought. He didn't post the source of his information... "OMG unbelievable ooomgmgo newb who really expects sources??!! YOU MUST BE SHITTING ME LOLZLZ." Maybe once you get out of middle school, you'll realize how important citing sources is, especially for the sake of arguments.

munks, zogo, phish....it's alright. some people will just ignore things until it's too late and they're the ones being mistreated and abused in America "land of the free".
Read above.

[Zogo]

munks, zogo, phish....it's alright. some people will just ignore things until it's too late and they're the ones being mistreated and abused in America "land of the free".

well, I don't take much consolation in that.

...YOU MUST BE SHITTING ME...

now that you know it's true..how do you feel?

[munks]

Wow you are dumber than I thought. He didn't post the source of his information... "OMG unbelievable ooomgmgo newb who really expects sources??!! YOU MUST BE SHITTING ME LOLZLZ." Maybe once you get out of middle school, you'll realize how important citing sources is, especially for the sake of arguments.
like you said, i'm so blind, taking my major news coverage story at face value. develop some research skills before you post again, "once you get out of middle school, you'll realize how important <research> is"

and check out this awesome site i found

www.news.google.com

oh, by the way, i'm in college, but i truly appreciate the writing lesson.

[munks]

I'd say as long as your ISO buddies openly support resistance by Iraqi's to US forces (meaning the support another country killing members of their own country's military), I would hope that they are on any and all watchlists.

If I were one of them, I would be thankful that I was merely only having to answer a few questions at the airport.

It's one thing to disagree with a war, but it's another to openly support the actions and efforts of an enemy.
yeah, i'm at the ISO site and I see nothing that says, "allahu ackbar, death to israel, death to the US" in fact all i really see is the support of a withdrawl, please show me where the ISO says they support the murder of US troops. in fact, being a socialist, i know that socialists are specifically anti-war, so you are misrepresenting an entire political group.

edit: I see where it says they support the Iraqis right to resist the US invasion, but that is a long shot from saying they support the murder of US troops.