$1000.00 white schoolarship

[kiken]

Boston College republican party has started a white only $1000.00 schoolarship to proove how stupid schoolarships for one particular race is. i think this is just what the american public might need to wake up and finaly put an end to afirmitive action. Was funny how some of the members of the school are reacting to this one man was saying that the white students out number colored students 3 to 1 . Was curious what everyone thought of this?
story (http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/11/22/caucasian.scholarship.reut/index.html)

[Streetwolf]

It's actually the BU college republicans, not the BC republicans.

Anyhow.

I see no harm in this. It won't fuck up their quest for more diversity. Why can't there be a white-only scholarship? All the other races get one!

[MystiKaL]

It made my day when michigan voted yes on proposal 2 to ban affirmative action in public institutions this election.

There is no reason why a white-only scholarship cannot exist in this country, I feel like I'm the damn minority nowadays with all the affirmative action-based scholarships and grants being given out. Hopefully people will wake up one of these days and see that affirmative action increases racial tension and reinforces stereotypes and that we don't really need to give "hand-outs" to the "minorities." It's just reverse-racism in my opinion..

[dook]

*This is going to be more rant than argument. Sorry I don't have the time to organize and elaborate*

It kills me to see such misunderstanding for the reasons behind ethnicity-based scholarships and affirmative action in general. The point of such programs is not "to give handouts to minorities because they're dumber than whites" or something, but rather to help balance the table so that disadvantages such as economic status, childhood environment, cultural/gender perceptions, etc don't hold back students with potential.

I spend a bit of time advising and helping at inner city high schools in Los Angeles, specifically physics programs. The school I'm currently with has over 5,000 students, mostly latino. There are three AP physics classes per year, but no student has ever passed the AP exam (i.e. made a 3 or better). When the SAT still had only two parts for a total of 1600 points, most graduating classes did not have anybody break 1000 (I've heard teachers say it's never happened but I'm not positive about that). This is not because the kids are stupid.

It has everything to do with environment. For instance, I read some applications for a science club from students in one of the physics classrooms, and one of the questions was about highest educational level attained by a parent. All the responses were either a.) no grade school at all, or b.) less than 8th grade. The kids come from a background where no emphasis is placed on education; where parents often feel that they ended up fine without formal schooling, and their children will too; where even if the parents didn't feel that way, they wouldn't be able to help with schoolwork, or make informed decisions about their kids' educational futures, or even tell their kids how many years it takes to be a doctor or what an engineer does. Example: On Tuesday I had the pleasure of seeing a girl get her drop-out slip signed by the physics teacher I was with. The story is she's leaving because her parents are pushing her out of the house because there are way too many people living there. They don't feel bad at all about this-- after all, they did the same thing. The teacher said she could've gone to college.

Environment aside, cultural differences also hinder students. Even in communities that are better off there's still this engrained notion that "nobody wants to date the science fair girl" or "real brothers don't do math" or "you need to be rich for college. us poor people work construction" or something like that. It sounds stupid as hell, but the message is all over the place and if you're a minority and you hear it from your family and friends and see it on TV and in movies all the time, it has a serious effect.

There's lots to say and I haven't said it. What I want to get across is that kids who sleep on couches in tiny houses with extended families in poverty-stricken neighborhoods where good teachers don't want to teach, and who have completely uneducated parents and siblings and friends mixed up in gangs and jail and live under the umbrella of ethnic stereotypes should not have admission and scholarship decisions made based on a comparison of their SAT numbers with those of upper-middle class white kids.

Those are some of the reasons for minority scholarships. On the other hand, the reasoning behind "white only" scholarships seems to be what streetwolf said: "Why can't there be a white-only scholarship? All the other races get one!"

[Kartikeya-OD]

I'd like to make a scholarship know as 'Get outta jail' majority scholarship.

[beyond]

There is no reason why a white-only scholarship cannot exist in this country, I feel like I'm the damn minority nowadays with all the affirmative action-based scholarships and grants being given out. Hopefully people will wake up one of these days and see that affirmative action increases racial tension and reinforces stereotypes and that we don't really need to give "hand-outs" to the "minorities." It's just reverse-racism in my opinion..

So shouldn't you be adamantly against this scholarship? I mean, protesting something that you feel is wrong by doing what it is that you feel is wrong sees very hypocritical.

[|RES|arod]

Giving out scholarships based on skin color is wrong in this day. Stereotyping blacks and latinos as all being poor is ridiculous. I know a few black people who are from well off families and get "black scholarships." I wouldn't mind it so much if it were just scholarship funds for anyone in poverty.

[SithDrummer]

Giving out scholarships based on skin color is wrong in this day. Stereotyping blacks and latinos as all being poor is ridiculous. I know a few black people who are from well off families and get "black scholarships." I wouldn't mind it so much if it were just scholarship funds for anyone in poverty.
Right on.

[JohnnyBSam]

There is no reason why a white-only scholarship cannot exist in this country, I feel like I'm the damn minority nowadays with all the affirmative action-based scholarships and grants being given out. Hopefully people will wake up one of these days and see that affirmative action increases racial tension and reinforces stereotypes and that we don't really need to give "hand-outs" to the "minorities." It's just reverse-racism in my opinion..

So when white people "feel" like a minority it makes them angry. thats super. I like how white people make judgements about something they can never understand. Seriously, how many people here feel crowded by these scholarships, grants, whatever... i doubt that people here know more than 10 people each that affirmative action really helped (compared to the hundreds you know whom it didnt help because they were not "minorities"). Cmon, white people in america have so many opportunities, stop complaning and better yourselves.

That being said, i find this scholorship stupid, but i dont really have a problem with it existing.

[xero]

Giving out scholarships based on skin color is wrong in this day. Stereotyping blacks and latinos as all being poor is ridiculous. I know a few black people who are from well off families and get "black scholarships." I wouldn't mind it so much if it were just scholarship funds for anyone in poverty.Rich white people abuse the system too, you know that right?

Here's some of what they do:

They go to doctors who they know will classify their kid as dyslexic so that they can take the AP tests or the SAT (for that matter, any College Board exam) with no time limit. Recently, legislation was also passed that says that in the name of 'diversity,' the information regarding whether or not students took the test with or without timing is now illegal (there are two exceptions to this rule: the MCAT and the LSAT can be taken by a dyslexic with no time limit, but that knowledge is shown on their transcript -- but it's still illegal for admissions to take it into consideration).

They also frequently get DNA testing to determine if they have any minority ancestry, and try to use it to gain scholarships or other affirmative action perks.

And don't forget about women's scholarships! The statistical fact that women outnumber men in college enrollment 2-to-1 or higher on average and have substantially better grades in high school (thus, higher rates of admission to college, accompanied with better graduating grades than men) doesn't stop women's groups from handing out money to rich girls who are already secure in affording college.

Slate has written several articles on this subject over the past couple years, and how dramatically these actions (and others) have impacted northeastern colleges, particularly Ivy League schools.

And any poor student, regardless of race, can get a scholarship. At the very least, they'll get financial aid, and access to affordable student loans.

[Streetwolf]

*This is going to be more rant than argument. Sorry I don't have the time to organize and elaborate*

It kills me to see such misunderstanding for the reasons behind ethnicity-based scholarships and affirmative action in general. The point of such programs is not "to give handouts to minorities because they're dumber than whites" or something, but rather to help balance the table so that disadvantages such as economic status, childhood environment, cultural/gender perceptions, etc don't hold back students with potential.

I spend a bit of time advising and helping at inner city high schools in Los Angeles, specifically physics programs. The school I'm currently with has over 5,000 students, mostly latino. There are three AP physics classes per year, but no student has ever passed the AP exam (i.e. made a 3 or better). When the SAT still had only two parts for a total of 1600 points, most graduating classes did not have anybody break 1000 (I've heard teachers say it's never happened but I'm not positive about that). This is not because the kids are stupid.

It has everything to do with environment. For instance, I read some applications for a science club from students in one of the physics classrooms, and one of the questions was about highest educational level attained by a parent. All the responses were either a.) no grade school at all, or b.) less than 8th grade. The kids come from a background where no emphasis is placed on education; where parents often feel that they ended up fine without formal schooling, and their children will too; where even if the parents didn't feel that way, they wouldn't be able to help with schoolwork, or make informed decisions about their kids' educational futures, or even tell their kids how many years it takes to be a doctor or what an engineer does. Example: On Tuesday I had the pleasure of seeing a girl get her drop-out slip signed by the physics teacher I was with. The story is she's leaving because her parents are pushing her out of the house because there are way too many people living there. They don't feel bad at all about this-- after all, they did the same thing. The teacher said she could've gone to college.

Environment aside, cultural differences also hinder students. Even in communities that are better off there's still this engrained notion that "nobody wants to date the science fair girl" or "real brothers don't do math" or "you need to be rich for college. us poor people work construction" or something like that. It sounds stupid as hell, but the message is all over the place and if you're a minority and you hear it from your family and friends and see it on TV and in movies all the time, it has a serious effect.

There's lots to say and I haven't said it. What I want to get across is that kids who sleep on couches in tiny houses with extended families in poverty-stricken neighborhoods where good teachers don't want to teach, and who have completely uneducated parents and siblings and friends mixed up in gangs and jail and live under the umbrella of ethnic stereotypes should not have admission and scholarship decisions made based on a comparison of their SAT numbers with those of upper-middle class white kids.

Those are some of the reasons for minority scholarships. On the other hand, the reasoning behind "white only" scholarships seems to be what streetwolf said: "Why can't there be a white-only scholarship? All the other races get one!"
Most of what you said is about minorities/disadvantaged students without a proper education. A scholarship won't help these kids out. They have to first get INTO college before they start worrying about cost. And while I would never turn down even a $250 scholarship, it's not really going to make all the difference. They would need the big scholarships, the ones that give you half tuition or more.

[dook]

Streetwolf- You're right that they don't have a proper education. My point is that it's not their fault, and this is why we might need to have different standards when evaluating merit in college applicants from different backgrounds or might need to allocate funds specifically to those who have less privilleged backgrounds (and yes, I would argue that this includes being a minority itself). By the way, the money is not going to be a problem for the kids at this school. The ones who get into USC, UCLA, Berkeley, etc will all have full rides from financial aid.

I suppose I'm not addressing the thread's topic. The question was whether this scholarship for whites should be permitted. I can't think of grounds for prohibiting it... but I think it's arrogant in the extreme.

[Streetwolf]

Well then the problem should be addressed earlier in their lives. I know it may not be a possibility, but an admissions counselor cannot selectively lower the standards just because some kid with potential grew up in the wrong neighborhood. Who's to say if they'd survive in college without the proper educational background?

[AntioK]

So when white people "feel" like a minority it makes them angry. thats super. I like how white people make judgements about something they can never understand. Seriously, how many people here feel crowded by these scholarships, grants, whatever... i doubt that people here know more than 10 people each that affirmative action really helped (compared to the hundreds you know whom it didnt help because they were not "minorities"). Cmon, white people in america have so many opportunities, stop complaning and better yourselves.

That being said, i find this scholorship stupid, but i dont really have a problem with it existing.


I know plenty of people that have been fucked by affirmative action, whether it be the PPD, the PFD, or any union you pick in the city...


I don't see the reason why anybody more qaulified for a job should get screwed to fill a qouta....


Judge me not be the color of my skin but by the contents of my character. or something like that ;)

[Randy Travis]

Most of it comes back to wealth and access to knowledge. Generally speaking, people of higher socio-economic status have access to information that others are not privvy to. Xerox or xero or whatever's example of methods of beating the system are probably unknown to the majority of lower class people, and for a reason.

Furthermore... the kids doing well enough in school to get the motherfucking scholarship's probably come from better socioeconomic backgrounds anyway... as was referenced I think by someone who said that uneducated parents take the logic that "i turned out fine" will apply to their children, and thus don't educate them on ways to achieve success (ie: study; ie: FIND scholarships).

My problem is with the statement that 'any poor kid can get a scholarship' the problem is that poor kids don't have the fucking grades or inclination to get the damn scholarships because they don't have anyone guiding them. Not their parents and certainly not the administration at the half ass school boards they attend.

[Brick]

I actually took a Racial and Ethnic Relations class in college last summer and was boggled at how racist the teacher was. The content is amazingly one-sided. He said there is no such thing as racism from black people because it isn't institutionalized. I asked about exactly what you are all talking about; a scholarship that is offered to black people only is institutionalized, so how does it not fit the racist definition?

He totally dodged the question and gave me a B in the class (tried to give a B-). There's more to that teacher and class, but it's a little off topic. The point is I've felt the same way and there was even a white girl at my school (Arizona State University) who started the CMASU or something like that; Caucasian Males of ASU - it was awesome. Several companies have quotas for how many minorities are in managerial and executive positions also. Top executives won't get paid bonuses unless they meet the quotas. I'm all for diversity, but there's a difference between diversity and affirmative action.

I think the NBA should start having white player quotas. Every team is required to have at least 20% of their starting line up be a white guy and maintain a 25% quota of white males on the team as a whole. Pretty stupid, huh? So why do we do it everywhere else?

[Yesbama]

I actually took a Racial and Ethnic Relations class in college last summer and was boggled at how racist the teacher was. The content is amazingly one-sided. He said there is no such thing as racism from black people because it isn't institutionalized. I asked about exactly what you are all talking about; a scholarship that is offered to black people only is institutionalized, so how does it not fit the racist definition?

He totally dodged the question and gave me a B in the class (tried to give a B-). There's more to that teacher and class, but it's a little off topic. The point is I've felt the same way and there was even a white girl at my school (Arizona State University) who started the CMASU or something like that; Caucasian Males of ASU - it was awesome. Several companies have quotas for how many minorities are in managerial and executive positions also. Top executives won't get paid bonuses unless they meet the quotas. I'm all for diversity, but there's a difference between diversity and affirmative action.

I think the NBA should start having white player quotas. Every team is required to have at least 20% of their starting line up be a white guy and maintain a 25% quota of white males on the team as a whole. Pretty stupid, huh? So why do we do it everywhere else?

I'm so sorry the black man has been keeping you down your whole life. Although, you'll probably never understand what it is like to be a minority in the United States, remember that.

People in this thread crying over spilt milk, like you've ever experienced racial oppression or something.

I agree affirmative action quotas are retarded, and programs should be started earlier in the lives of the disadvantaged. But I do not think that skin color/race/ethnicity should totally be kicked out of the picture, it is important to acknowledge what is reality.

edit: This isn't very christian of you:
I'd like to make a scholarship know as 'Get outta jail' majority scholarship.

[MightyCawdoR]

Do other countries offer schlorships to their minority populations like we do? And to everyone saying whites can't be racially oppressed, do me a favor and go into areas where your skin color isn't the majority and see how well you get treated.

[FluxCapacitor]

I'm so sorry the black man has been keeping you down your whole life. Although, you'll probably never understand what it is like to be a minority in the United States, remember that.

People in this thread crying over spilt milk, like you've ever experienced racial oppression or something.

I agree affirmative action quotas are retarded, and programs should be started earlier in the lives of the disadvantaged. But I do not think that skin color/race/ethnicity should totally be kicked out of the picture, it is important to acknowledge what is reality.

edit: This isn't very christian of you:


With the amount of Latinos coming in/breeding white people AND black people will become the minority in the United States. It doesnt especially matter if whatever race is actually the minority. If there was a world of 100 of our black people and only 1 of our white people the black people would still call themselves a minority. My town and school was (dont live there anymore, at college) over 65% black. The minority talk was amazing, and I dont mean talk of global minority, I mean local.

So, yes, one day we will know what it is to be the minority, I like to call that day "Armageddon"

[Brick]

I'm so sorry the black man has been keeping you down your whole life. Although, you'll probably never understand what it is like to be a minority in the United States, remember that.I purchased a home near school and work for convenience and space, but I live in Arizona and am a minority in my neighborhood and surrounding area. I never claimed to be opressed, but most of the minorities absolutely cannot claim to be as held back as much as most say.

But keep trying to put words into my mouth and assuming whatever else you want; it's working well.

[janordy]

Almost all of my schools whites were the miniority. I have learned this from my experiance, black people are more racist than white people. The other so called minioritys (blacks hispanics asians) were in no way held back in any form (yes alot of them were "poor"). Having schoolarships for so called "oppressed" races is bullshit. Get rid of it all together, it just further proves that we are indeed differant and should treat others differantly. If we must have them, there must be a white one for every school that offers them as well.

[ass*assassin]

scholarships based on racial-profiling is bullshit..

the only thing that should matter is if the person scores high enough on the SAT's and other entrance exams, and they (or their parents) can't afford to pay.. to send someone to school because they are minority is bullshit, especially if they can't cut the coursework because they fucked off in high school..

[WiKiD]

i guess its easily forgotten what black people have endured during this countries short existance. i dont think any amount of reparations and affirmative action will ever cancel out the effects of the trouncing of blacks for so many years. so the playing field should be equal now you say? will it can never be because of the past.

[AntioK]

i guess its easily forgotten what black people have endured during this countries short existance. i dont think any amount of reparations and affirmative action will ever cancel out the effects of the trouncing of blacks for so many years. so the playing field should be equal now you say? will it can never be because of the past.


I didn't purchase, own, abuse, or sell any slaves.


I don't think Slavery has effected any black people living today.

[MightyCawdoR]

i guess its easily forgotten what black people have endured during this countries short existance. i dont think any amount of reparations and affirmative action will ever cancel out the effects of the trouncing of blacks for so many years. so the playing field should be equal now you say? will it can never be because of the past.

And it seems to be even more easily foirgotten that blacks haven't been the only ones who've ever been slaves and that the entire world was involved in the slave trade, not just us. Every race has been abused at some point in time and in some parts of the world it still happens, but guess one place it doesn't happen to blacks, that's it, right here in the good ole usa. Like I asked eariler, do other countries give out stuff to people based on the fact their ancestors were slaves or abused in their past?

[Yesbama]

Where do you guys think racial tension, discrimination, and prejudice of black Americans comes from? Where does racism come from? Why are so many blacks in impoverished communities? Why is there a vicious cycle of poverty, crime, poor education, and poor community resources? Because of past and present racial oppression maybe?

You are a fool and a half if you think that black Americans today are not affected by the shit that has happened in the recent past. Black people are not genetically predispositioned to commit crimes, do drugs, live with such low standards, kill each other, etc. All of that is shit that happens because of past and present racial discrimination. There is a reason for everything, you have to question everything. Think about this for a second:

When was slavery abolished? What is today’s date?
January 1865----------------December 2006
142~ years ago, (that’s like two/three family generations)

However, Black people still basically had no rights up until the civil rights movement.

When did the whole civil rights movement start? What is today’s date?
1955-1965----------------------------------December 2006
40-50 years ago, that’s your parents and grandparents.

My grandma literally still believes that black people do not have the same genetic make up as white people (as in, they are a different species). Racism is not gone, it is NOT a thing of the past, that’s just an illusion, a lullaby white people tell other white people. And you are probably older, and your mental plasticity is lessening with age. So your ability to begin to understand racial oppression from another point of view isn’t very strong, so I can understand how you can look at the present situation so one-sided.

Wouldn’t we all love to think that it's just the black people that need to get their shit together, it’s all on them, white people today have no responsibility, after all, we never owned slaves.

You don't have to do anything or make any effort to change the way you see the situation but you can not blatantly ignore the fact that what happened to Blacks in our country is an irreversable social/societal abomination.

[kiken]

ian you have forgotten about the jews. look at the jews today and think of everything that has ever happened to them. i personaly feel if the jews are not crying about the how they have been treated throughout history then guess what blacks havent ven expierenced a 10th of the shit they have. stop crying and look to other races for examples on what to do.

[Brick]

There is no argument from me that past discrimination still plays a factor in the current inequality of wealth. It is true. What do you want done about it? Let minorities in respective countries enslave the rest of the population for the same amount of time? Increasing racial tension by giving extra opportunity to minorities isn't helping much nor is it absolutely necessary. Working hard in high school is enough to get you a scholarship to a college anymore. There are also numerous successful individuals that don't have a college education. There will be a gap in wealth between the populations because of the years of accumulation. Nothing can make it right except giving equal opportunity to everyone and that gap will continue to reduce.

To claim there is still a significant setback due to racial discrimination is ludicrous in my opinion. I can't tell you how many times I've seen or heard of a minority not getting fired with very good cause because they would play the racial discrimination card or minorities getting a job over a more qualified individual for similar fears. I'm obviously not saying white people are oppressed, but you live in a country where this type of situation is common because of discrimination that happened 40+ years ago.

There is absolutely still discrimination in this country and there probably always will be. Many white people try to ignore it and many minorities use it as an excuse. But don't even try to claim there isn't racism against white people or that some white people don't encounter any disadvantages because of it. You say white people grow up ignoring racism. I say several minorities grow up learning racism is holding them back and they can't do anything about it. I challenge you to find an example today of a time you were significantly held back due to racial discrimination. Maybe you can and I'm sorry if that's the case, but that sure isn't the norm this day in age.

[Brick]

ian you have forgotten about the jews. look at the jews today and think of everything that has ever happened to them. i personaly feel if the jews are not crying about the how they have been treated throughout history then guess what blacks havent ven expierenced a 10th of the shit they have. stop crying and look to other races for examples on what to do.You really can't compare black people to other minorities. For example, several Jews came to this country already wealthy and many more came with great skill in trade and running various businesses. They simply needed to apply the skills they built up in a new area. Not to say they didn't suffer from discrimination as well, but black people did not have the wealth or skills in their background that Jews did.

[hawk]

There is no argument from me that past discrimination still plays a factor in the current inequality of wealth. It is true.
Agreed. I think this is a very important distinction to make. Past discrimination, racism, and slavery have created a large inequality between blacks and whites. I really think this is indisputable. Essentially America dug a large hole dropped the blacks into it and told them to get out of it. They've made progress, but they are still in the hole today.

We should acknowledge this and then the debate should center around what's the best way to handle it. Are we responsible for what happened in the past? Do we have moral obligation to help bring them out of the hole? Or is it now good enough for us to say, you may not have the same starting level as the average white person, but you can still achieve the same.

This scholarship does nothing to address this issue in a significant way, it just stirs the pot. I've always found the outrage of young white males at the reverse discrimination mildly entertaining. They have no idea what real racism is, none whatsoever.

[Forgotten]

I go to the University of Michigan, the self-proclaimed capital of educational diversity. It drives me insane. The university president made a statement the day after proposal 2 passed to get rid of affirmative action, and in closing said "Let’s stand together to say: We are Michigan and we are diversity." She said the word diversity 21 times in that speech. I would like it if proposal 2 accomplished something, but everyone is trying to figure out ways around it, and it'll probably work.

I personally don't see what's wrong with being qualified for things. If I had it my way, the race and gender ticks and diversity essays would be removed from the application. I was affected by affirmative action before I even stepped foot on campus. My friend and I both got accepted. I had better grades than him and my parents don't make a ton of money; I got a couple of grants/scholarships and was happy with that. Loans take care of the rest. His parents are both lawyers, and he got a full ride. He's latino. Any affirmative action supporter that cares to justify that, please do.

Sure it's hypocritical to support the white scholarship if you oppose affirmative action. But the purpose of it is clearly not the same. If race-based scholarships became illegal, they would be the first to get rid of it without complaining. Everyone that supports affirmative action based on inequality needs to realize that equality can never truly exist unless it goes away.

[Yesbama]

I challenge you to find an example today of a time you were significantly held back due to racial discrimination. Maybe you can and I'm sorry if that's the case, but that sure isn't the norm this day in age.


LoL I'm not black haha

Respectful response though. I have a few black friends who would be able to tell you some stories, nothing like lynchings or hate crimes but outright racism, yeah.

[hawk]

I coach a U12 soccer team and the players often talk about school and such with me. The one and only black player on my team was telling me about how his girlfriend broke up with him because her dad didn't approve that he was black. This stuff does exist.

[MightyCawdoR]

I coach a U12 soccer team and the players often talk about school and such with me. The one and only black player on my team was telling me about how his girlfriend broke up with him because her dad didn't approve that he was black. This stuff does exist.

And I'm sure you can find blacks who don't like it when other blacks date whites, or asians who don't want to mix with whites, and on and on. Are these cases of racism as well or is it just racism when it's a white guy not wanting his daughter to date a black kid? In an ideal world racism wouldn't occur, but we live in the real world and racism has been around since one guy looked at another and decided they didn't like them based on the way he looked. It'll be long past our time before racism will cease to be.

[dys]

I think it was the first season of "24". David Palmer, a black man running for president, is walking through a parking garage. He comes across two black teens knocking out windows from the cars with a baseball bat. He grabs the bat, give a little speach and one of the teens replies "Why should I go vote? What are you gonna do for me?" Robert Palmer replies "What am I going to do for you? That's the problem, you're waiting for someone to do something for you. You go do it yourself." and he gives the bat back. The teen then procedes to knock out more windows.

[Cyberdemon]

Giving out scholarships based on skin color is wrong in this day. Stereotyping blacks and latinos as all being poor is ridiculous. I know a few black people who are from well off families and get "black scholarships." I wouldn't mind it so much if it were just scholarship funds for anyone in poverty.

Pretty much this. Lack of educational opportunities has very little to do with race (a friend of mine checks the African-American box on some of his applications only because he was born in Johannesburg) and everything to do with poverty, and need-based scholarships should go to those who most need them regardless of race. If the pro-AA crowd's collective sob story is true, most of them will continue being awarded to blacks.

[EyjaPia]

Ok, I've read a lot of this thread, but not the whole thing, so I apologize if I'm repeating something or coming from left field here, but I was reading a great article and it made me think of this.

This is from a large NYTimes article on elementary education, No Child Left Behind, and all that stuff. It's talking about charter schools which are aimed specifically at poor kids and therefore are 99% black and hispanic.

"Although as charter schools, their admission is open through a lottery to any student in the cities they serve, their clear purpose is to educate poor black and Hispanic children. The guiding principle for the four school leaders, all of whom are white, is an unexpected twist on the “separate but equal” standard: they assert that for these students, an “equal” education is not good enough. Students who enter middle school significantly behind grade level don’t need the same good education that most American middle-class students receive; they need a better education, because they need to catch up."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/magazine/26tough.html?pagewanted=7&ei=5087&em&en=a700df952726e7a1&ex=1164776400

The article is called "What it takes to make a student"

Yea, there's technically a level playing field, but we're starting at completely different positions. The article talks earlier about some researchers whose study in KC found that even by age 3, the differences in middle-class v. working class homes was so great that the kids were already far behind. It's not about trying to push certain people ahead, it's about bringing them up to a fair starting line.

[derno]

i had 3 friends who all applied to the University of Michigan, 2 were mexican and one was polish, The polish one had like a 3.8-3.9 and like a 28 on the act for high schools while the 2 mexican friends had 3.2-3.4's and like 20 and a 22 on the ACT and they both got accepted as long as they took some summer classes so they would be at college level when they started. while the Polish friend didnt get accepted. i see a lot wrong in that. so thank god for michigan voting for proposal 2

[Sponge]

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/selectatest.jsp -> click on "race test" -> enjoy

sparknotes: if you're reading this, you're implicitly biased against black people (ok, there might be some of you who aren't). i am; so are most black people. fun fact: black people do worse on tests when they're reminded of their race through a "what race are you?" question. all this and more in blink.

[C Aim]

I don't see how anybody who isn't against racially centered scholarships in general could be against this (note: I did not read every post, and that statement is not directed to anybody specific in this thread). If some private organization feels that they want to create a scholarship that discriminates among applicants than that is their right.

Personally, I think that public-financed scholarships that are intended to provide financial aid to those who do not have a lot of money to be spending on college should not be discriminating among race. These scholarships should be solely concerned with the applicants' financial situations, and those that qualify scholastically should be prioritized in order of most needy of the money. If it so happens that any one race gets the bulk of the money, then so be it; at least it would be fair. Unfortunately this is not always the case.

I also believe that privately financed scholarships should follow the same stipulations, however I also recognize the right for organizations that fund-raise under clear pretexts to do exactly what they want with the money they raise.

One thing that I found disturbing about the article was this quote from the Dean of Students:"Our goal is to try to increase diversity on the campus, and that usually means diversity from an ethnic and racial standpoint," Elmore said. "This scholarship does not further that goal."I have a huge problem with diversity requirements in general, but that is another topic. The thing that is most disturbing about this statement is that it seems like the Dean would have no issues with some other organization creating a scholarship for blacks, hispanics, etc.; so raising an issue with this scholarship is irresponsible in my opinion.

[Brick]

I should point out that diversity is actually a good thing. There have been studies done that show groups with good diversity are more productive than groups comprised of similar individuals. There are barriers to work through, but a big reason why many organizations promote diversity isn't because of affirmative action or fear of lawsuits; it's actually because diversity helps them grow as a company. Again though, there is a difference between affirmative action and diversity.

[Zogo]

as far as I'm concerned a business and/or private scholarship can put any kind of quota they want..however, using taxpayer's money to further some social agenda doesn't make sense to me.

if it's about being poor and underprivileged then why is it based on race?

or something, but rather to help balance the table so that disadvantages such as economic status, childhood environment, cultural/gender perceptions, etc don't hold back students with potential.

when will balanced be reached and how will we know it has occured?

[EyjaPia]

if it's about being poor and underprivileged then why is it based on race?


That's one of the more difficult questions, but the fact remains that minorities are much more likely to be poor.


when will balanced be reached and how will we know it has occured?

This is a good question as well, and probably the hardest to answer but I think that one of the best indicators of that would be the testing gap. When minority students no longer score significantly lower on standardized tests, then it is balanced. (This is the premise of No Child Left Behind- minorities narrowed the gap significantly after the Civil Rights movement but progress stopped in the early 1980s and the gap has since widened. Now, we have to try to close it again)

[Sutterkane]

Respectful response though. I have a few black friends who would be able to tell you some stories, nothing like lynchings or hate crimes but outright racism, yeah.

aw, did someone call your poor little friends a bad name? I'm sure it's destroyed their opportunities in life for themselves and their family for generations to come.

[Yesbama]

aw, did someone call your poor little friends a bad name? I'm sure it's destroyed their opportunities in life for themselves and their family for generations to come.


No but imagine growing up seeing almost all white people portrayed in television, movies, and news as self-destructive low-lifes. Imagine growing up in an area where no one cares whether you succeed in school or not. Imagine growing up with the stereotype that the only way you will succeed is if you rap, play ball, or sell drugs.

You have no idea, and I know you don't because your a white guy in your late twenties who probably came from a family that valued your education and now you have a productive niche in society. It's fucking easy to sit back and judge from the sidelines isn't it? That's what we all forget, and that applies to everything from inner-city black subculture, to homosexuality, education, and abortion issues etc. The only way to understand someone is to walk in their shoes and I doubt there are more than ten people on these forums who comes from a real poverty stricken family, and if you do, what the hell are you doing on a computer?

[Sutterkane]

edit: nevermind

[Zogo]

That's one of the more difficult questions, but the fact remains that minorities are much more likely to be poor.

any program that is based on giving benefits out by race under the guise of helping the underprivileged is being disingenuous when it doesn't include all forms of the underprivileged itself.

do you think scholarships based on race condition people to rely on them? I myself think all of the US is being conditioned to take out more and more loans from the gov't..even middle class families are needing to take out giant student loans that will take years to be paid off.

This is a good question as well, and probably the hardest to answer but I think that one of the best indicators of that would be the testing gap. When minority students no longer score significantly lower on standardized tests, then it is balanced. (This is the premise of No Child Left Behind- minorities narrowed the gap significantly after the Civil Rights movement but progress stopped in the early 1980s and the gap has since widened. Now, we have to try to close it again)

the problem is that I can take white students from all 50 states and give them tests and there will be a noticeable disparity. asians score even higher on these types of tests.

[EyjaPia]

any program that is based on giving benefits out by race under the guise of helping the underprivileged is being disingenuous when it doesn't include all forms of the underprivileged itself.

I think in large ways this is why programs like charter elementary schools are successful and college scholarships cause so much controversy. These charter schools choose enrollment by random lottery in an underprivileged district.

I myself think all of the US is being conditioned to take out more and more loans from the gov't..even middle class families are needing to take out giant student loans that will take years to be paid off.

I completely agree. I think if you're smart enough to get in to the school (and application fees should not exist b/c they do deter people from applying) you should be able to go. I come from a place where that is the case. The University of Iceland will enroll you and worry about payment later (an entire academic year costs around $500 and is often waived).

Of course there are now private universities popping up and the country is going through somewhat of an identity crisis because of the overwhelming belief that education needs to be truly accessible to all. The private universities can pay professors more so they're starting to draw away teachers, though teaching and doing at the state-run university is still considered more prestigious.



the problem is that I can take white students from all 50 states and give them tests and there will be a noticeable disparity. asians score even higher on these types of tests.

There will always be a disparity. You take all the scores and you probably end up with a bell-shaped curve. We need to try to move that curve more to the right (higher scores). The problem is that when you add the scores of minority students (say as a separate line of data) you end up with two separate bell curves, with the scores of the minority students being significantly lower than (to the left of) the curve of white students. Those two curves should be one on top of the other, not spaced out like that.

And Asians...most often ignored in debating these issues. Asians are the only minority that does well on these tests and so no one's really worried about them.

[Zogo]

Those two curves should be one on top of the other, not spaced out like that.

but I can compare white students from each state and their bell curves won't be on top of each other.

I can also take white students from the same state and single out another category..like students from single parent homes compared to having both parents..I'm sure one of those would score better.

And Asians...most often ignored in debating these issues. Asians are the only minority that does well on these tests and so no one's really worried about them.

sometimes I think people worry too much about test scores in general. in the grand scheme of things the US is lagging behind many other countries in the fields of math and science.

[EyjaPia]

I can also take white students from the same state and single out another category..like students from single parent homes compared to having both parents..I'm sure one of those would score better.

I think I see your point, which is why the charter school's lottery enrollment is a good thing. I just feel like we come down to a serious but ingrained socio-economic problem. I just don't see how bringing up the fact that there are white kids who perform poorly on these tests too does anything to alleviate the test gap problem.



sometimes I think people worry too much about test scores in general. in the grand scheme of things the US is lagging behind many other countries in the fields of math and science.

Isn't that why we should worry about test scores? It is these test scores that show we're lagging behind. Isn't trying to better these test scores the point?

[HIPVJennifer]

sometimes I think people worry too much about test scores in general. in the grand scheme of things the US is lagging behind many other countries in the fields of math and science.

exactly, I used to live in the Netherlands for a couple years, and they're so far ahead over there it's ridiculous.

but anyways, I do think they should take away scholarships for only certain races,gender, etc and just have them strictly based on the grades you get. I mean, my mom's black & my dad's white, so I could go either way, but I really don't think its right to give out scholarships based on ethnicity

[dys]

exactly, I used to live in the Netherlands for a couple years, and they're so far ahead over there it's ridiculous.


I think that holds true in a LOT of countries. The educational system itself is just terrible here when compared to many other countries.

[Zogo]

I think I see your point, which is why the charter school's lottery enrollment is a good thing. I just feel like we come down to a serious but ingrained socio-economic problem.

if we're dealing with things that are ingrained..just throwing money at them won't fix the problem.

I just don't see how bringing up the fact that there are white kids who perform poorly on these tests too does anything to alleviate the test gap problem.

my point is that there will always be gaps when analyzing data with that many people involved.

Isn't that why we should worry about test scores? It is these test scores that show we're lagging behind. Isn't trying to better these test scores the point?

some people talk about test scores like they're life and death. when I was in HS I heard people getting upset over getting 30 / 36 on their ACT. (I think they've changed the scoring system now.)

but anyways, I do think they should take away scholarships for only certain races,gender, etc and just have them strictly based on the grades you get. I mean, my mom's black & my dad's white, so I could go either way, but I really don't think its right to give out scholarships based on ethnicity

I knew someone who was half spanish/half white..they ended up taking the money even though they were kind of on the fence about it.

I think that holds true in a LOT of countries. The educational system itself is just terrible here when compared to many other countries.

one issue is that the more powerful and affluent we become the more distractions and entertainment we get.

[EyjaPia]

if we're dealing with things that are ingrained..just throwing money at them won't fix the problem.

You're absolutely right. The article I posted about charter schools addresses that by completely changing the way they teach. The methods that lead suburban white kids to excell simply don't work for kids from different backgrounds. So actually changing the way they teach is working. But...those schools require money in order to function


some people talk about test scores like they're life and death. when I was in HS I heard people getting upset over getting 30 / 36 on their ACT. (I think they've changed the scoring system now.)

It's unfortunate that standardized tests scores determine as much as they do. In a country as large as the US, with hundreds of thousands of people applying to colleges each year, admissions committees need an easy way to weed out people. I don't agree with how important they are (I just spent the last year of my life stressing about the MCAT) but I don't see any alternatives.



I knew someone who was half spanish/half white..they ended up taking the money even though they were kind of on the fence about it.

My best friend is half black and she got a full ride with absolutely everything paid to KU based on a test (PSAT) on which I scored about 70 points higher than she did and got nothing. It's hard to not feel a little resentful, but I know that she does deserve the scholarship, and that's the main point. Yea, I think I deserved one too, but I'll get over it.



one issue is that the more powerful and affluent we become the more distractions and entertainment we get.

It seems like the point of school has moved away from educating children for life to just finishing school to get on with one's life.

[Civil]

Doesn't bother me.

In the past every race had to deal with issues that I couldn't even imagine.

Why should I care about benefits to help minorites go to college, when in the past people were getting killed for what they believed in.

Why should I worry about someone getting an edge in life by the government when other people are born into that exact same edge.

Why should I care that Jamaall gets a benefit for this race when George Bushs get benefits because their father.

Nothing is fair. Suck it up you bitchs. Atleast you didn't have to be a Native American during the time the White Americans decided to kill them all. Atleast you weren't a Jew in Nazi Germany. Atleast you weren't a Christian in the times of Nero. Or atleast you weren't Japanese during World War II. Atleast your not a Middle Eastern guy right now. Serisously your on a fuckin computer. You most likely have a job and currently going to school. So deal with it. There will always be Racial tension and Discrimination as long as we believe in Race. Thats why race was created to constrain a certain group of people. Your lucky the most racist thing in America right now is helping people. And not fuckin killing or hurting them. Thats progress in my mind.

[Zogo]

You're absolutely right. The article I posted about charter schools addresses that by completely changing the way they teach. The methods that lead suburban white kids to excell simply don't work for kids from different backgrounds. So actually changing the way they teach is working. But...those schools require money in order to function

do you think there are issues with minorities not wanting to be too "white?"

[Electricus]

Honestly I want everybodys opinions on this

Send A Black Kid to an all white school, job neighborhood see what happens
Send a White Kid to an all Black school, job neighborhood and see what happens.
Both in low income areas, with shitty schools systems and crap for jobs
I want to know which you think is the worse situation?

then after I'll tell you my personal experiences that I had.

[AntioK]

Honestly I want everybodys opinions on this

Send A Black Kid to an all white school, job neighborhood see what happens
Send a White Kid to an all Black school, job neighborhood and see what happens.
Both in low income areas, with shitty schools systems and crap for jobs
I want to know which you think is the worse situation?

then after I'll tell you my personal experiences that I had.


You're going to have to specify whether this situation takes place in the North or South of the country....

[Zogo]

I want to know which you think is the worse situation?

worse situation in what way? IMO this scenario is too intricate to come to a conclusive conclusion. if I had to pick I'd say whichever guy was able to conform to the culture better and blend in.

[Moniker]

Nothing is more hilarious than internet males discussing race relations on the internet. I hope this thread keeps going for pages and pages.

[Jarek]

Do other countries offer schlorships to their minority populations like we do? And to everyone saying whites can't be racially oppressed, do me a favor and go into areas where your skin color isn't the majority and see how well you get treated.

the funny part is i can speak a fair bit of spanish because thats all my ex's family spoke, so when i went to class in holyoke where 90% of them are hispanics they think cracka-ass is the only word i can understand

its really annoying and pathetic at how much they can get away with it when if i said spic or nigger i'd get kicked out

[Electricus]

north actually

[Electricus]

In school we had one black family. Not too rich not too poor this kid during school had everything laid out for him couldn't get in trouble scholarships out the ass (and he was a c student all the way through high school) The kid has grown up to be a decent man who is a well established member of the community. (This was maine btw Generally harmless people unless you go farther up north where they hate everybody if they don't have the last name)

My first experiences living as a minority. Bridgeport CT. Well at the time the apartment was decently close to the job I held at the time. I yeah did I mention I was the only white male in a 5 block radius? Now my first day the postman(latino btw really nice guy) who came by saw me and he said I white boy shouldn't be in this area its not good for his health.. lovely what a wonderful first message. I walk to the store to by a pack a cigs not 2 blocks away some kid tries to rob me. 85% of the people around were fine. its the 15% percent who must of all happened to live in my apartment did not want my ass in the area. my car was broken in to a few times tires robbed apartment broken in too 4 times in 3 months letters from tenants telling me to get my cracka bitch ass to get out or something bad is going to happen bleh bleh bleh. I was getting in to fights outside of work like 4 or 5 times a month not even to be robbed but because I was living. I moved out 6 months later.

Work was actually fine except when I started I wasn't making 14 dollars an hour like the normal starting wage I was making 10. Warehouse work with forklifts and the such when I had 5 years experience at the time with all the nice paperwork saying I could drive everything they had. Then another guy who came in after me with no experience got the 14 we actually became good friends that how I found out about his wage. his first rise was $1.50 my 23 cents. Why? because the man in charge take a wild guess.....
(this is why I'm actually playing tfc again I left that job and found something nicer)

but hey just watch were you live right

[Rand]

Double o says a lot.

[Zogo]

Nothing is more hilarious than internet males discussing race relations on the internet. I hope this thread keeps going for pages and pages.

nothing is more hilarious than discussing <insert topic here> on the internet?

he said I white boy shouldn't be in this area its not good for his health..

was he going to have a heart attack if he saw you again or something?

[AtomicJim]

Though it is only in Boston and a smaller scholarship amount (you can recieve $1250.00 for being left handed and $500 scholarships for wearing glasses), I'm glad someone went through with this. I am very opposed to affirmative action & racial scholarships, and hopefully this will do even the smallest measure in "real equality" or at least cause a "ruckus".

I think the NBA should start having white player quotas. Every team is required to have at least 20% of their starting line up be a white guy and maintain a 25% quota of white males on the team as a whole. Pretty stupid, huh? So why do we do it everywhere else?

Not to subvert your opinion, but that will be the day... (good point)

It made my day when michigan voted yes on proposal 2 to ban affirmative action in public institutions this election.

Amen. I also live in Michigan and was told (not in exact words) that the U of M Ann Arbor (main campus) had met their white folk quota and I was being denied admission. After election, I tried again, still didn't get in, but I applied to their Dearborn location (secondary campus & primaryly arab/african american community) and just transfered by telling them I felt I was in a high crime area (true) and would be racially discriminated (true outside of the college, anyways). Funny how this can go both ways...

[Jarek]

I figure I will share why I think affirmative action is fucking retarded. My father would actually be a police officer now instead of owning a car dealership (i guess he DID dodge the bullet in the long run) cause he aced the physical exam and all of whatever they put you through or whatever to become a cop back in the 80's. However, the police department did not give him the job because they claimed there was something wrong with his background that they could not disclose (he has an absolutely clean background.)

They ironicly turned down the second most worthy canidate who was also white, and hired the 2 who came in third and fourth, who both were black. He later found out that the police department in that county was getting in trouble for not having a diverse enough force and that they were getting law suits because of the "minorities" felt like they weren't being treated as equals.

The same shit happens in colleges every semester, they ignore higher qualified people to balance out the "minorities" so that they won't get their asses sued because of the wonderful idea of affirmative action.

[SithDrummer]

I think the NBA should start having white player quotas. Every team is required to have at least 20% of their starting line up be a white guy and maintain a 25% quota of white males on the team as a whole. Pretty stupid, huh? So why do we do it everywhere else?
Dirk Nowitzki becomes even more valuable. GO MAVS

[bad]

Do other countries offer schlorships to their minority populations like we do? And to everyone saying whites can't be racially oppressed, do me a favor and go into areas where your skin color isn't the majority and see how well you get treated.


you mean where ? 'nc' or the 'ghetto' ? case closed.

[bad]

I didn't purchase, own, abuse, or sell any slaves.


I don't think Slavery has effected any black people living today.
any move you make in that past affects your future.. so rethink that.. no im not black but you guys sounds ridiculous.

theres a white scholarship out now, woohoo big deal.

[Zogo]

any move you make in that past affects your future.. so rethink that.. no im not black but you guys sounds ridiculous.

yes, but throughout history every race has been enslaved.