just realized something big

[post-mortem]

ok my life in the past 2 months was kind of like the airplanes crashing into the wtc. Shit has been sucking harder than paris hilton on crack. So I have been debating things. Things like God. I always had faith in God but now that my life sucks I started debating whether or not he exists. This quote had an impact on my view...

"i'd like to share a revelation i've had in my time here. it came to me when i tried to classify your species and i realized you're not mammals. you see, every mammal instinctively develops a natural eqilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. you move to an area and you multiply, and multiply, until every natural resource has been consumed. the only way you can survive is to spread to a new area. there is one other organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. do you know what it is? its a virus. human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet, you are plague. and we are the cure." - hugo weaving as agent smith. (matrix niggerlips)

Although this line comes from a movie. it is very well thought out, and it makes perfect sense. Do we believe that the viruses inside our bodies that do the very same thing as us go to a heaven or a hell or have an after life?
Fuck no. So why should we? We are the same as the viruses that we hate so much yet we believe in Gods to help comfort ourselves from being alone and realizing that fact that we are not immortal.

Ill also thorw this in since its funny as hell...
http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=20711

I am still on the fence since I do think something is weird about what the hell is going on. Maybe it may not be a god but maybe something else. No clue. Over the past couple of weeks people have said things about God such as we should love and comfort him because he watches every move we make, and I could only think of how stupid that sounds. What the hell do you guys think?

[tyson^cool]

Hey dude this is the Academy. Hi.

[FluxCapacitor]

I never liked the Matrix, now I just re-embraced that dislike once again.



I have another nifty pseudo philosophical point to make:

"And, poof, like that, he was gone"

[Cent]

What took you so long to realize mine was so big... loZolfoOZolfL

[Streetwolf]

Well you can't really classify viruses as living things, so they can't exactly die now can they?

[decap]

guys, i just realized something revolutionary. god isn't real, i mean, do you guys think like im thinking here? i'm astounded at my findings

[RogueCheddar]

Check this link out dude

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism

[leg]

You guys know that it is illogical not to believe in God? Not that you have to follow "His" teachings or anything, but just believing that he exists. I'll explain later if you don't understand.

[FluxCapacitor]

Explain Leg. I somewhat kind of not really see what you are trying to get at but i'd like to hear the reasoning behind it.

[rabidkevin]

There are 1001 definitions of what a god is to someone.

it is the ultimate metaphoric understanding of ourselves!

Ideas and knowledge are created with relationships to the world we experience. To some a god is a morale guideline to understand the boundaries of respect and social order, to others god is a spiritual guidance, and at one point in time multiple gods existed which controlled everything we could not understand from lightning to storms to tsunamis. If you really look at it from the big picture, god is a way for us to relate to something without understanding it's true mechanics. The more we understand, the less we need a god to symbolize the unknown.
.

[Hellsy]

It will be important for you to tease apart the sacred feeling for the residuum of the cosmos that most men share -- and the belief that some entity is behind it. One entails the sacredness of Being. The other entails sacredness of Being from Being.

I see the former when I gaze at a horizon, a masterpiece, my lover's eyes and smile, her children riding on my back. I do not clearly see the latter.

To see oneself as fundamentally a virus, wipes out the many-in-oneness that is a man. Viruses do not love. Viruses do not sit wide-eyed in front of art objects experiencing some Hegelian immanence of truth. Viruses do not sit in soft light with warm music with a naked woman, smoking and enjoying existence.

Well, ha, as far as I can tell. ;)

[leg]

As I said before, you don’t have to act on your belief, just simple believe that God exists. I hardly think that believing or not believing in this will cause any great consequences in your life. So…

1) If God exists, heaven exists, and your chances of getting into heaven increases if you believe in him.
2) If God doesn’t exist, nothing changes whether you believe or not.

This is basically Pascal's argument and while I was searching for a good example of this, which I had read in a book, I came across this site: http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

[Yesbama]

As I said before, you don’t have to act on your belief, just simple believe that God exists. I hardly think that believing or not believing in this will cause any great consequences in your life. So…

1) If God exists, heaven exists, and your chances of getting into heaven increases if you believe in him.
2) If God doesn’t exist, nothing changes whether you believe or not.

This is basically Pascal's argument and while I was searching for a good example of this, which I had read in a book, I came across this site: http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

To everything in that website you linked,
I say, WHY?

[TkMasTaH]

I was brought up in a religious home and I have come to the following conclusions about my beliefs.

Firstly, I dont know if I believe in God or not, I think that it is a great idea, I like the idea, but the realist in me realizes that there is a chance that there is no such thing. However, if there is a God, I am positive that there is a way to prove his existence that we have not yet discovered. Science and religion should be in harmony and not in opposition. One day we will discover the proper rules that govern such a system and that make sense. Regardless, it is vital to not put too much faith in such beliefs because doing so only leads to huge letdowns in life when things are not going right.

This being the case, I think that the purpose of religion is to guide, but it is'nt necessarily for everyone. For some people, it leads to inspiration. Some people in my opinion need to believe in a higher authority telling them how to go about their daily lives. They feel the need to be told what to do in order to feel worthwhile. If that works for you, fantastic. It doesn't work for me, but I respect those who it does work for. In my case, I feel fantastic as I am, I am happy and I feel plenty of purpose in my life. I don't ever feel like it is pointless, I know what I want and how I am going to try to get it.

[ffej-OD]

-sighs-

[bergenhell]

this thread is proof that god is dead.

[Yesbama]

-sighs-


Mother Fucking excellent site, especially the second link and chapter 13 (of the same site).

[Hellsy]

I hardly think that believing or not believing in this will cause any great consequences in your life.

It does if you examine all it can entail. "God" is rarely left alone as a free-floating abstraction. Concepts are relationally tied to one another and often people attach purpose, moral standards, a creepy voyeurism, and a sense of justice (ask any God-fan about justice and capital punishment) in this life or the next. Could you simply believe in a bare-bones God? Sure. But that's almost never the case. People personalize.

1) If God exists, heaven exists

Not necessarily true. Just Hell could exist. God could be a sonuvabitch, as George H. Smith suggests in Smith's wager. It's logically possible that God is evil. And being so evil, powerful enough to trick you that he is not evil. He may even write a book singing his praises, then just torture you endlessly when you die, irrespective of how moral you were. It's an assumption that God is just or your friend.

You have to abandon a Judeo-Christian bias if you want "pure" argument.

and your chances of getting into heaven increases if you believe in him.

Possibly false. God may care less about what you believe. I recall some piece of literature by Bertrand Russell (I may be confusing philosophers) - the point was that a devoted Christian dies, wanders around the cosmos looking for God. He finds God creating some universes, entirely pleased with himself. Probably smoking pot, one of his better creations. God takes one look at the theist and asks: "Who are you?"

It is not directly intuitive that an all-powerful being is deeply concerned with having one particular belief-- like some neurotic girlfriend asking: "YOU TRUST ME RIGHT? YOU BELIEVE, RIGHT?!?!"

2) If God doesn’t exist, nothing changes whether you believe or not.

Considering the beliefs are felt, I find this odd. Our beliefs need a specific integrity and cogency with how we find ourselves in the world. If my intuitions point me strongly towards denying that such a being exists, it does grate against my personal and world integrity to run against that conceptual gradient. It creates a friction which some atheists have told me made them deeply depressed and feeling betrayed by "something in the world".

Moreover, not all beliefs are chosen. I couldn't simply flip a switch and believe in God. It would take a lot of effort to pull me from my current belief state to a radically different one. Certainly, this overhaul of how I both see and feel the world (Godless and ruled by chance brought into tow by emergent properties and phenomenal gunk) would fundamentally alter and consequently change things within me.

To claim that "You can just believe or not believe and nothing changes, LOLZ!" is a naive understanding of how beliefs work.

And as an aside-- Pascal's Wager is hardly respected in academia (here is my appeal to authority) because it's errors are wide and have been blown up so much that only a minority see merit in it.

[wads]

if you go into this problem of god's existence with the assumption that god may or may not exist, and you think hard enough and critically enough, then i think its natural to come to the conclusion that an all knowing, all powerful, and all righteous being in the literal sense does not and cannot exist.

my reasoning for this is as follows: the very origin of the concept of God, stems from unexplainable, natural or otherwise, phenomenon that humans observe. and due to our very nature, we wanted to explain, and to understand what we observe. take a very good example, lightning for instance, the ancient greeks and romans saw this event, and could not explain it, instead they argued about it, they argued what it could be and where it came from. and in the end, the most "elegant" and "beautiful" explanation they could come up with was that a lightning god existed, and its purpose was to be the keeper of lightning. and there you have it, the creation of a God. but today, we know of the ancient greek's Gods they worshiped only as myths. ancient greek isn't a religious in our society, because it's widely believed to be a myth, a made up story, a fantasy.

now the question to ask is what exactly is the Judeo-Christian god? and what purpose does it serve in our society. when i say god from now on, ill be refering to the Christian god. could it be, that god was also created, in a way by humans trying to rationalize unexplainable events? i'm sure there were many events in history were something happening, and the only explanation people could come up with was an act of god, or miraculous in nature. and im also sure that sometime into the future, a explanation that didn't require the existance of god was discovered. of course, we cant explain everything in nature (yet), and there are still plenty of things happening around us that NO one can explain without having to deal with divine intervention.

but isn't this line of reasoning equivalent to that of the ancient greeks? who are we to assume that the things that we cant explain today, and attribute to God's doing, cannot be scientifically deduced in the future? we cant assume that. and thats the bottom line, history as shown us time and time again of humanity progressing along, with more scientific discoveries and new technologies that have either explained the unexplainable of the past or made the science fiction of the past into reality. that's just indisputable fact.

at best, you could say that god exists, but he is not what the bible claims, there is no all knowing, all powerful, and all righteous entity watching over us. instead philosophically speaking, god is everything about the universe(and beyond) that we as a species do not know yet. the more we know about nature and the universe, the smaller god gets, will there be a day where according to this statement, that god disappears? i dont know.

but nevertheless, my claim still holds true. back in the early centuries of civilization, in the ancients, god and rituals, and worship was a HUGE part of people's daily lives, people pray multiple times a day, make offerings and sacrifices to many god's, and there are even wars fought over and for god's. and while some of that is still true present day, the overall presence of god in the world population's is undeniably less than that of the past.

i consider myself an agnostic, or at least mostly agnostic. but this doesn't mean that i hate people that do believe in god, nor does it mean i hate religion either. on the contrary, i think religion is important to our society. but not because god is involved. tkmastah has put it nicely, in saying that religion is there to help people live their lives as ethically as they can. just about EVERY major religion teaches kindness, love, and reward, and this is no coincidence. the reason why organized religion is so successful is because of this. religious people whether they realize it or not, are trying to live better lives by believing in religion because the fundamentals of most religions is that it gives a purpose in life. whether it be going to heaven, or reaching enlightenment or 100 young virgins. of course this doesn't mean non-religious people are bad people, they aren't motivated by religion to act or just have different ways of living up to a standard of life.

bottom line, God as described in the bible does not exist.
philosophically, god can be reasoned to exist, but with a very different definition than what is widely excepted

and religion is good and helps our society for the most part, but it is not necessary in the present, and will become less and less important in the future.

[shin]

:O mr wads is my gawdz AMEN :)

[stas]

if you go into this problem of god's existence with the assumption that god may or may not exist, and you think hard enough and critically enough, then i think its natural to come to the conclusion that an all knowing, all powerful, and all righteous being in the literal sense does not and cannot exist.

my reasoning for this is as follows: the very origin of the concept of God, stems from unexplainable, natural or otherwise, phenomenon that humans observe. and due to our very nature, we wanted to explain, and to understand what we observe. take a very good example, lightning for instance, the ancient greeks and romans saw this event, and could not explain it, instead they argued about it, they argued what it could be and where it came from. and in the end, the most "elegant" and "beautiful" explanation they could come up with was that a lightning god existed, and its purpose was to be the keeper of lightning. and there you have it, the creation of a God. but today, we know of the ancient greek's Gods they worshiped only as myths. ancient greek isn't a religious in our society, because it's widely believed to be a myth, a made up story, a fantasy.

now the question to ask is what exactly is the Judeo-Christian god? and what purpose does it serve in our society. when i say god from now on, ill be refering to the Christian god. could it be, that god was also created, in a way by humans trying to rationalize unexplainable events? i'm sure there were many events in history were something happening, and the only explanation people could come up with was an act of god, or miraculous in nature. and im also sure that sometime into the future, a explanation that didn't require the existance of god was discovered. of course, we cant explain everything in nature (yet), and there are still plenty of things happening around us that NO one can explain without having to deal with divine intervention.

but isn't this line of reasoning equivalent to that of the ancient greeks? who are we to assume that the things that we cant explain today, and attribute to God's doing, cannot be scientifically deduced in the future? we cant assume that. and thats the bottom line, history as shown us time and time again of humanity progressing along, with more scientific discoveries and new technologies that have either explained the unexplainable of the past or made the science fiction of the past into reality. that's just indisputable fact.

at best, you could say that god exists, but he is not what the bible claims, there is no all knowing, all powerful, and all righteous entity watching over us. instead philosophically speaking, god is everything about the universe(and beyond) that we as a species do not know yet. the more we know about nature and the universe, the smaller god gets, will there be a day where according to this statement, that god disappears? i dont know.

but nevertheless, my claim still holds true. back in the early centuries of civilization, in the ancients, god and rituals, and worship was a HUGE part of people's daily lives, people pray multiple times a day, make offerings and sacrifices to many god's, and there are even wars fought over and for god's. and while some of that is still true present day, the overall presence of god in the world population's is undeniably less than that of the past.

i consider myself an agnostic, or at least mostly agnostic. but this doesn't mean that i hate people that do believe in god, nor does it mean i hate religion either. on the contrary, i think religion is important to our society. but not because god is involved. tkmastah has put it nicely, in saying that religion is there to help people live their lives as ethically as they can. just about EVERY major religion teaches kindness, love, and reward, and this is no coincidence. the reason why organized religion is so successful is because of this. religious people whether they realize it or not, are trying to live better lives by believing in religion because the fundamentals of most religions is that it gives a purpose in life. whether it be going to heaven, or reaching enlightenment or 100 young virgins. of course this doesn't mean non-religious people are bad people, they aren't motivated by religion to act or just have different ways of living up to a standard of life.

bottom line, God as described in the bible does not exist.
philosophically, god can be reasoned to exist, but with a very different definition than what is widely excepted

and religion is good and helps our society for the most part, but it is not necessary in the present, and will become less and less important in the future.

just for kicks, which religious document says "and we realized we had no clue where it came from, so we decided it must god"?

[FluxCapacitor]

Must be the Jews stas, has to be the jews. They cause all the other problems of the world, why not this one?




(It's a joke I am jewish and truly believe in Mel Gibsonism)

[Yesbama]

just for kicks, which religious document says "and we realized we had no clue where it came from, so we decided it must god"?


Why would someone, creating a religious document, write that? Wouldn't that undermine the entire document?

I really want you to honestly read through that site jeff posted, I think a thread should be started on that site alone. I want someone to argue against it.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com

[wads]

Why would someone, creating a religious document, write that? Wouldn't that undermine the entire document?

I really want you to honestly read through that site jeff posted, I think a thread should be started on that site alone. I want someone to argue against it.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com


you cant put up a good argument against it, because you cant put up a logical arguement for religion, because its whole basis requires faith. the deeper you think about religion, the less it makes sense. however faith does serve a purpose in society, and religion is simply the means to deliver that.

just for kicks, which religious document says "and we realized we had no clue where it came from, so we decided it must god"?

i never said any religious document told us anything, my claims are my observations of how past theological ideas were forms, and its comparisons to the present.

as far as im concerned, the only parts worth anybodies time of any religious document is the part where it teaches good morals and ethics. the other parts can be thought of as myths and fables.

[stas]

of course they wouldnt, thats the point. these are obviously your own conclusions and observations. unless there are documented discussions of the romans about how lightning was created that you can appeal to...how can you be so sure that your observations are fact as you believe them to be?

[larcain]

as far as im concerned, the only parts worth anybodies time of any religious document is the part where it teaches good morals and ethics. the other parts can be thought of as myths and fables.

So your idea is that you can learn good morals and ethics from a document that you suppose is mostly lies. Interesting premise.

[Hellsy]

So your idea is that you can learn good morals and ethics from a document that you suppose is mostly lies. Interesting premise.

In fairness, a Dostoevsky novel can be said to do the same thing.

[wads]

of course they wouldnt, thats the point. these are obviously your own conclusions and observations. unless there are documented discussions of the romans about how lightning was created that you can appeal to...how can you be so sure that your observations are fact as you believe them to be?

historically, ancient greek and roman mythology evolved as different era's came and went, when most of the population were farmers in a few hundred BC, most of the god's at the time were gods related to the earth, and the harvest. as time went on, and civilizations began to dominate, gods of war and heros began to emerge.

excerpt from britanica on greek mythology "The myths deal with the creation of the gods and the world, the struggle among the gods for supremacy and the triumph of Zeus, the love affairs and quarrels of the gods, and the effects of their adventures and powers on the mortal world, including their link with natural phenomena such as thunderstorms or the seasons and their connection with cultic sites or rituals."

it only makes sense to think that gods back in those days were created out of a combination of the unexplainable and the desires of man. and even if i'm not right, it would be foolish to believe that the creation of the ancient god's had nothing to do with natural events that coudlnt be explained.

So your idea is that you can learn good morals and ethics from a document that you suppose is mostly lies. Interesting premise.

yes that is exactly my idea. every piece of fiction can be defined as a lie, are all fictitious works worthless? no. good morals and ethical ideology can be communicated through a work of fiction, or if you want to call it differently, a lie.

[stas]

and even if i'm not right, it would be foolish to believe that the creation of the ancient god's had nothing to do with natural events that coudlnt be explained.

why?

[Yesbama]

You didn't read that site did you?

Watch instead:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video7.htm

[FluxCapacitor]

Well, for example, Zeus hurled the thunderbolt (thunder and lightning), demeter was the harvest and they explained winter by that was the third of the year when her daughter was in the underworld with her husband. Then there was something men needed, Zeus as the protector of strangers. Since there were no holiday inns or anything back in antiquity the society of the time made the chief God protector of travelers and strangers, in doing so it made it so when a stranger came to somebodys house there was a code of what to do:

1) bathe them/oil them
2) clothe them
3) feed and "rejoice their coming"
4) tell them your story, and then after you tell yours you ask theirs


As far as historians can tell those rules were actually followed for fear of Zeus's wrath. (Classics Major, I can get documents if you want but I am just typing this before my shower)

[leg]

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

God gave us stem cell research. The ability has always been there, we were just too stupid to realize it until now. :D

[larcain]

In fairness, a Dostoevsky novel can be said to do the same thing.


This would actually be a different case in that Dostoevsky makes no claims to be anything other than writing a work of fiction. There is a very real difference between something that is a work of fiction used as a vehicle to teach morals and something that claims to be true, is a lie, and attempts to teach morals.

[wads]

This would actually be a different case in that Dostoevsky makes no claims to be anything other than writing a work of fiction. There is a very real difference between something that is a work of fiction used as a vehicle to teach morals and something that claims to be true, is a lie, and attempts to teach morals.

oh i see where you are coming from, it certainly does make sense. but if you think about it this way, does a piece of writing, containing one unethical portion, automatically make EVERYTHING else invalid? this could be argued to be true in the case of a person. however literature doesn't work the same way, you can read something, and only take into heart the parts of the book that teach good things. and ignore the bad, like.. ritual sacrifice or something.

but of course, this makes an assumption that the person reading the book already has a sense of what good morality and ethics are. which is certainly true in most cases, but not all.

[Dr.Gizmo]

Well you can't really classify viruses as living things, so they can't exactly die now can they?

Some hold that reproducing (viral replication) and changing (mutation) are enough to consitute life.

[King_Nada]

This would actually be a different case in that Dostoevsky makes no claims to be anything other than writing a work of fiction. There is a very real difference between something that is a work of fiction used as a vehicle to teach morals and something that claims to be true, is a lie, and attempts to teach morals.
Where have the authors of the bible claimed that it is true, aside from within the bible itself? I'm not asking this rhetorically, I really am curious if they have.

King

[larcain]

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

This is one such passage, if that is what you mean. (Written by Paul, btw)

[King_Nada]

I asked for sources other than the bible.

King

[larcain]

Doh. All that college and I still can't read.

To answer your question: I don't really know. I'll have to do some research.

[FluxCapacitor]

I asked for sources other than the bible.

King


What do you mean, other sources by the same writers from the bible stating it's true? Other religious works stating their book is true? Or other sources about the bible saying the bible (judeo-christian bible that is) is true?

[larcain]

Actually, I think his point is, and I could be wrong: Are we sure it isnt some sort allegory?

I would think, given the language used in the bible, that the writers either believed what was contained with was true or they wanted other folks to believe what was contained within was true.

[King_Nada]

What do you mean, other sources by the same writers from the bible stating it's true? Other religious works stating their book is true? Or other sources about the bible saying the bible (judeo-christian bible that is) is true?
My question was in regards to his statement that Dostoevsky never claimed his works were true. Are there any recorded statements by the authors of the bible, other than in the bible, that claim the bible is true.

King

[dylan]

If anyone has seen the Futurama where Bender becomes a 'God' of sorts and then later on meets 'God'...

It sort of made me think, what if God is purposefully vague and hidden?

I remember in the show it said "If you've done things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

Just kinda made me go "Hmm..." :)

[larcain]

My question was in regards to his statement that Dostoevsky never claimed his works were true. Are there any recorded statements by the authors of the bible, other than in the bible, that claim the bible is true.

King

I guess maybe I should have said "It is apparent from Dostoevsky's work that it was intended to be nothing more than an allegory from which certain things could be learned ".

[Hellsy]

I guess maybe I should have said "It is apparent from Dostoevsky's work that it was intended to be nothing more than an allegory from which certain things could be learned ".

You could learn things from a novel that are false or true.

My point is that something being a fiction does not necessarily take away from the ability to be a truth-bearer.

It's entirely feasible that one could garnish some grand truth from a work of fiction, a true story presented in novel form, or a story presented as entirely true which is indeed a fiction (this happened to Oprah recently).

I just didn't feel that if you were claiming that something full of lies is a truth-bearer is weird, that even if that were the case-- it would not be damning.

Then of course, you have situations wherein even if the Bible is a load of horseshit, it could still bear some truth in virtue of being a work of art bearing some truth in virtue of having an aesthetic object (although the Bible is so bad as art that I find this hard to swallow).

Also, I find it weird to claim that a novel is 'nothing more than' an allegory.

[Radioactive]

If anyone has seen the Futurama where Bender becomes a 'God' of sorts and then later on meets 'God'...

It sort of made me think, what if God is purposefully vague and hidden?

I remember in the show it said "If you've done things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

Just kinda made me go "Hmm..." :)

If you consider the millions starving in Africa, typhoons, and hurricane Katrina to be something right, then yes, yes I agree.

[FluxCapacitor]

Thank you King i truly didnt understand what you wanted. If anybody knows, because I dont, are there other works of literature by the writers of the bible besides the bible? That would be an interesting read.

[Kap`n]

So your idea is that you can learn good morals and ethics from a document that you suppose is mostly lies. Interesting premise.


aesops fables...true stories

[public_slots_free.mL]

I am also agnostic and halfway through your post i could tell you were too wads. There are two types of agnostic and the first type believe that there very well could be a god and if they were shown proof of it, they would believe it. The 2nd type believes that there may be a god but there is no possible way to prove it or disprove it. I am the latter.

[stas]

aesops fables...true stories

were aesops fables intended to lead you to a God or certain belief (that many here believe to be untrue and false), or to teach morals? yeah...not really the same.

[Zogo]

Thank you King i truly didnt understand what you wanted. If anybody knows, because I dont, are there other works of literature by the writers of the bible besides the bible? That would be an interesting read.

there are some mentioned in the bible
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-canonical_books_referenced_in_the_Bible

also
http://www.carm.org/lostbooks.htm

ancient greek isn't a religious in our society, because it's widely believed to be a myth, a made up story, a fantasy.

there still are a few that practice ancient stuff..religion dies hard.

Science and religion should be in harmony and not in opposition.

how would that work?

[Hellsy]

were aesops fables intended to lead you to a God or certain belief (that many here believe to be untrue and false), or to teach morals? yeah...not really the same.

"In the old days men used to worship stocks and stones and idols, and prayed to them to give them luck. It happened that a Man had often prayed to a wooden idol he had received from his father, but his luck never seemed to change. He prayed and he prayed, but still he remained as unlucky as ever. One day in the greatest rage he went to the Wooden God, and with one blow swept it down from its pedestal. The idol broke in two, and what did he see? An immense number of coins flying all over the place."

-Aesop's Fables

Isn't this saying something about God and not simply morals?

[Kap`n]

were aesops fables intended to lead you to a God or certain belief (that many here believe to be untrue and false), or to teach morals? yeah...not really the same.


lol aesops fables were all about morals...most fables, if not all, are written specifically to teach a moral lesson. Larcain asked if you could learn good morals and ethics from something fictional..well actually he said from a document you believe to be lies...

[stas]

lol aesops fables were all about morals...most fables, if not all, are written specifically to teach a moral lesson. Larcain asked if you could learn good morals and ethics from something fictional..well actually he said from a document you believe to be lies...

fiction and lies are not the same.

[post-mortem]

k i figured it out.

it is all possible that god created simply matter and everything else came out of it. Meaning there is a god but no afterlife.

If I where god and I created earth I would defintly with out a doubt intervene with things that are happening. Such as people being raped and murderd for centurys and people killing eachother over there own made up gods. If there was a God im sure he would too. Why would anyone say God is good if he can sit back and watch things that are terrible happen in the name of himself???

To say if your good you go to heaven and if your bad you go to hell sounds like a fairy tale made up by some story teller to keep his kid from whackin off so much. And thats another thing, somebody told me whackin off was a sin. LOL. Who made this crap up? I think if this is stated in the bible we might as well throw all the bibles out.

over the past few months I have realized so many things, that I'm glad I realized.

[Kap`n]

fiction and lies are not the same.


fiction is storytelling of imagined events and stands in contrast to reality

he chose the word lies. technically the bible, if it were totally false, would be considered fiction because it would be imaginary stories.


like that guy who wrote the book he claimed to be of his life that oprah promoted. The book turned out to be a bunch of lies about things that never really happened to him...the book is fiction because of that but was considered non fiction because he claimed it to be his life story. i know its totally different from the bible, but fiction and lying go hand in hand with storytelling.

[stas]

fiction is storytelling of imagined events and stands in contrast to reality

he chose the word lies. technically the bible, if it were totally false, would be considered fiction because it would be imaginary stories.

like that guy who wrote the book he claimed to be of his life that oprah promoted. The book turned out to be a bunch of lies about things that never really happened to him...the book is fiction because of that but was considered non fiction because he claimed it to be his life story. i know its totally different from the bible, but fiction and lying go hand in hand with storytelling.

except the bible isnt just a compilation of short stories as you portray it. so there exists a fundamental difference that you refuse to acknowledge. you would have to take it apart to make it such. its quite different.

[Yesbama]

To say if your good you go to heaven and if your bad you go to hell sounds like a fairy tale made up by some story teller to keep his kid from whackin off so much. And thats another thing, somebody told me whackin off was a sin. LOL. Who made this crap up? I think if this is stated in the bible we might as well throw all the bibles out.

over the past few months I have realized so many things, that I'm glad I realized.

Self-indulgence is a sin. The bible states that your body is not your own, it is Gods. God gave you your body for his purposes, not your own.

[Yesbama]

except the bible isnt just a compilation of short stories as you portray it. so there exists a fundamental difference that you refuse to acknowledge. you would have to take it apart to make it such. its quite different.


how is it not a compilation of stories? The fact that it was "written" by "multiple" people makes it even less valid in my opinion.

[Kap`n]

except the bible isnt just a compilation of short stories as you portray it. so there exists a fundamental difference that you refuse to acknowledge. you would have to take it apart to make it such. its quite different.

27 books in the new testament...each of which is according to different people. sounds like a compilation to me.

[stas]

you have still failed to acknowledge that intention of both types of writings are different, so why am i going to waste my time talking about content and format of fictional works and debating the merits of it?

[Zogo]

I think if this is stated in the bible we might as well throw all the bibles out.

many OT passages mention not to "spill your seed all over the place."

you have still failed to acknowledge that intention of both types of writings are different, so why am i going to waste my time talking about content and format of fictional works and debating the merits of it?

the koran..truth or fiction?

the bhagavad gita..truth of fiction?

[public_slots_free.mL]

like that guy who wrote the book he claimed to be of his life that oprah promoted. The book turned out to be a bunch of lies about things that never really happened to him...the book is fiction because of that but was considered non fiction because he claimed it to be his life story. i know its totally different from the bible, but fiction and lying go hand in hand with storytelling.

A Million Little Pieces

[Hellsy]

like that guy who wrote the book he claimed to be of his life that oprah promoted. The book turned out to be a bunch of lies about things that never really happened to him...the book is fiction because of that but was considered non fiction because he claimed it to be his life story. i know its totally different from the bible, but fiction and lying go hand in hand with storytelling.

To this day I'm not clear what she is so angry about. He lied, but so what? She was rambling on and on about how it was a true story and some how this made it better? So, she looked a little foolish. Big deal.

Certainly, everything in the book was feasible. Certainly, she got some inspiration out of it. As in the ontological argument-- it's unclear that a possibly existing fictional truth is better than an actual one. The truth in the work of art brought about by the aesthetic object is more important than the concrete facts. The truths expressed in Hamlet are more important than the concrete facts such as that it takes place in Denmark. A fact that is true of the work, but that could be replaced. A fact that is truth neutral (it does not matter if Hamlet was real or any of it actually occurred or was based on 'a true story').

Not disagreeing with you, just more commentary.

[Redneck]

I was planning on making a rare night stay here but I just saw someone using the Matrix to relate to their life in a meaningful fashion. Oh well, back to the cesspool.

[AntioK]

http://www.whywontgoddomylaundry.com


I don't get it, i prayed so sincerely for God to do my laundry, but when i woke up, it was all still there staring me in the face.....


THERE IS NO GOD, MY WHOLE LIFE HAS BEEN A LIE

[post-mortem]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7498241687701731240

very good movie

[Yesbama]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7498241687701731240

very good movie


Very nice movie. +1 for rational thought.

[Mexi]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7498241687701731240

very good movie


I stopped paying attention when it showed how happy some Christians were, then "bad examples" of Christianity.


You want to talk about Christians who have done wrong? Look in the mirror. Christians get put under a microscope and their moves are much more scrutinized because people are looking for wrongdoings in them. The reason I don't put a bumper sticker on my car regarding Jesus is because if I cut someone off, then they associate what I did with a religious bumper sticker. The reason I wear my little cross necklace outside my shirt when I run is so people see what I'm doing and hopefully see my cross, and realize why it's out there. Christians get judged and it's associated with Chrsitianity. Non-Christians get judged and it's associated with nothing, so nobody really cares.

Christians have done bad things, but the percentage of Christians doing good and bad are much higher and lower, respectively, than the good and bad of non-Christians. I base that off nothing but personal experience that can't really be fully described without taking hours to do it, so I won't. If anyone, even non-Christians deny this, you're just kidding yourself. There are far more Christians volunteering to do things, but you forget about them. You see the ones that contradict good so you can have ammunition against Christians in general. People pick out rotten apples and apply that to a group as a whole, when the rotten apples don't represent anything the group is about.


I remember something a few years ago, I think I saw a clip of it on TV. It was some old lady yelling at some kids and completely spazzing, and I remember people on this exact message board saying "that's why I can't stand Christianity."


That movie was terrible for a few minutes, and I'm assuming it was terrible for the rest.

[FluxCapacitor]

I stopped paying attention when it showed how happy some Christians were, then "bad examples" of Christianity.


You want to talk about Christians who have done wrong? Look in the mirror. Christians get put under a microscope and their moves are much more scrutinized because people are looking for wrongdoings in them. The reason I don't put a bumper sticker on my car regarding Jesus is because if I cut someone off, then they associate what I did with a religious bumper sticker. The reason I wear my little cross necklace outside my shirt when I run is so people see what I'm doing and hopefully see my cross, and realize why it's out there. Christians get judged and it's associated with Chrsitianity. Non-Christians get judged and it's associated with nothing, so nobody really cares.

Christians have done bad things, but the percentage of Christians doing good and bad are much higher and lower, respectively, than the good and bad of non-Christians. I base that off nothing but personal experience that can't really be fully described without taking hours to do it, so I won't. If anyone, even non-Christians deny this, you're just kidding yourself. There are far more Christians volunteering to do things, but you forget about them. You see the ones that contradict good so you can have ammunition against Christians in general. People pick out rotten apples and apply that to a group as a whole, when the rotten apples don't represent anything the group is about.


I remember something a few years ago, I think I saw a clip of it on TV. It was some old lady yelling at some kids and completely spazzing, and I remember people on this exact message board saying "that's why I can't stand Christianity."


That movie was terrible for a few minutes, and I'm assuming it was terrible for the rest.


Well since I assume you take this from a USA view the country IS 75% christian... of course you see more christians volunteering, 5% of them could volunteer and that would trounce any other religion that tried. Christians arent the only ones whos bad minority is looked at for being an evil majority. Sounds kind of like a martyrdom complex, be jewish so you can be the 2nd coming of christ!

[Yesbama]

I stopped paying attention when it showed how happy some Christians were, then "bad examples" of Christianity.


meh.


Are you serious? Why would you admit that you watched for a minute or so and then turned it off? You didn't watch the entire movie, you didn't see what the main outcome was. The purpose of this movie is for people to realize that they need to think about what they believe. How are people going to think about what they believe if they refuse to TRY to think about what they believe? You turn it off because he said Manson thought he was a Christian, so what? Even I think that part was a low-blow and a reach and a half but I continued to watch, and I didn't focus on one fucking scene of a 60 minute movie.

Way to miss/enforce the universal point the author of the movie was trying to make. You don't challenge your beliefs, you don't look outside your own comfort zone, you don't change.

Wow. I suggest you watch this movie with an honestly open mind. Then read the websites Jeff posted with an honest open mind, and see if anything clicks. I know you are intelligent dude, don't cop-out because one scene shows nonsense.

[post-mortem]

trust me watch the movie... then post.

im thinking about buying one of the books mentioned at the end of the movie.

this one inperticular

http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail~bookid~26766.aspx

[Cyberdemon]

Christians have done bad things, but the percentage of Christians doing good and bad are much higher and lower, respectively, than the good and bad of non-Christians.

Yikes. Unless your "personal experience" spans roughly 50,000 years of human history across six continents, that's, like, a double-wide this vehicle makes sudden oversized-load turns assertion.

[stas]

Way to miss/enforce the universal point the author of the movie was trying to make. You don't challenge your beliefs, you don't look outside your own comfort zone, you don't change.

Wow. I suggest you watch this movie with an honestly open mind. Then read the websites Jeff posted with an honest open mind, and see if anything clicks. I know you are intelligent dude, don't cop-out because one scene shows nonsense.

right, because if you challenge your beliefs youre gauranteed to change! but if you stay the same, youre "close-minded", "ignorant", or otherwise. whats the point? you and everyone else out there assumes that people believe what they believe blindly without considering anything else, is it any wonder we dont take you or such movies seriously? just listen to yourself, if we dont agree or take the point of the movie to heart, all of a sudden we arent challenging ourselves. get over yourself and realize that not everyone will come to the same conclusion as you. you post this junk in almost every thread.

[Yesbama]

He out right admitted that he did not give the movie a chance.

I keep spitting the same stuff in every thread because people don't address the questions that are spat at them. How can you ignore logic and reason because you have faith? Faith based on what? Why is your faith so strong if you don't even know why? If it's based on something that can be proven wrong, inaccurate, wholly contradictory, and almost make-believe, then how the hell can your faith be so strong? That's what I can't wrap my head around, I don't get it. People will admit that genesis is wrong and it's for our teachings. Or that they don't believe the Old Testament 100%. So what the hell is the point in having faith in something that you don't COMPLETELY agree with? How is that not something to think twice about?

By the way I watched that whole creationism video someone posted by that guy who went to jail for tax evasion. I listened to every point he made, re-wound parts, finished, took notes on every point he made. Then I looked them up. I myself am not completely sure how dinosaur bones are dated, or how long it takes for a pickle to petrify, so I looked it up.

What I found out is that this man is clouded by, among other things, anger and religion. He makes little to no sense... especially the bit about the Grand Canyon, and how "scientists" use rock layers to date fossils and fossils to date rock layers, with no intermediate. guh.

I dunno, it's fun to argue against "faith" I guess. It's completely irrational, yet so incredibly clung to.

[-Dirby-]

Well since I assume you take this from a USA view the country IS 75% christian... of course you see more christians volunteering, 5% of them could volunteer and that would trounce any other religion that tried. Christians arent the only ones whos bad minority is looked at for being an evil majority. Sounds kind of like a martyrdom complex, be jewish so you can be the 2nd coming of christ!
75% are NOT Christians. 75% of people may consider themselves Christians but they are not. There is a major difference between knowing who Jesus is and calling yourself a Christian then giving your life up to Him and walking with the Lord.
As I've stated before, I called myself a Christian my entire life but knew nothing of what it truly meant until not too long ago.

Ian, honestly, if you want me to rationalize my faith I cannot. There is nothing rational about it, but it's there, it's completely prevalent in my life and the only way it can be explained is by experiencing it with someone else.
If you want to touch on the OT well that is for a complete other discussion and I'd honestly rather sit down face to face and chat with someone about that. Maybe someday soon I will try to type up how my faith is explained and post it here. That day is not today unfortunately because it is 2am and I have class at 8, sorry.

[Breaker]

I was brought up in a religious home and I have come to the following conclusions about my beliefs.

Firstly, I dont know if I believe in God or not, I think that it is a great idea, I like the idea, but the realist in me realizes that there is a chance that there is no such thing. However, if there is a God, I am positive that there is a way to prove his existence that we have not yet discovered. Science and religion should be in harmony and not in opposition. One day we will discover the proper rules that govern such a system and that make sense. Regardless, it is vital to not put too much faith in such beliefs because doing so only leads to huge letdowns in life when things are not going right.

This being the case, I think that the purpose of religion is to guide, but it is'nt necessarily for everyone. For some people, it leads to inspiration. Some people in my opinion need to believe in a higher authority telling them how to go about their daily lives. They feel the need to be told what to do in order to feel worthwhile. If that works for you, fantastic. It doesn't work for me, but I respect those who it does work for. In my case, I feel fantastic as I am, I am happy and I feel plenty of purpose in my life. I don't ever feel like it is pointless, I know what I want and how I am going to try to get it.

If you are a Christian then you should not depend on God to tell you how to go about your daily life. You can learn from God, but you have to do it on your own, Christ wouldn't sacrifice himself for robots, it would erase the point.

[Yesbama]

I believe that you should not live life for yourself. A selfish life is an empty life. Should you live it for the biblical god? eh maybe not. I do however think that you should live for love, and you should live to help others and make differences in the lives of others. Your reason for living should not be your career successes, your nice possessions, etc. Those things mean absolutely nothing when you are 70 years old staring chronic illness and impending death in the face.

People need to realize that family, friends, and love are the things worth living for. This includes absolute understanding and compassion for others. That's why religion pisses me off, because it completely contradicts itself in almost every way. If people just realize what they are and accept their roles in society, the entire planet would be better off. Take responsibilities for your successes in life, as well as your mistakes, don't blow it off as the "will of god".

You know what, I would give anything to be able to believe in Christianity. I would love to know that when I die I will live on and so will my friends and loved ones. I would love to know that someone is watching over my every move, and will make sure that everything turns out to be okay. I would love to know that someone has a plan for me.

BUT I don't know that, and as far as I can tell those are simple yearnings that EVERY HUMAN BEING has. That’s why the promise of religion is so great. That’s why the delusion is so strong. Because we ALL want it to be true, so badly that we will ignore plain and simple fact, we will ignore reason, and logic, we will shut ourselves off from opposing thought so that we can grasp to this everlasting hope that our pathetic multicellular biochemical existence isn't all there is to it. Well news flash, that is all there is to it. We all know it, deep down, that’s why people are so sensitive about their religious beliefs. That's why people won't watch or read things that MAY make them honestly THINK about their beliefs.

I'm not going to live my life based on some lullaby my mommy told me when I was 6 to explain things my brain wasn't mature enough to grasp just yet. Well, I've begun to understand and accept the fact that I am a living organism just like my dogs and cats, just like a locust, just like an elephant, and I'm much less confused. I am grateful for every breath I take but I do not attribute that to a guy in the sky who magically wrote the bible through dozens of people thousands of years ago.

[Breaker]

Homie you just contradicted yourself. You talked about living for the sake of love and then swiftly denied it to your own self, and if you can't love yourself it makes you like me - All the love you try to show to anybody is fake. You want to let people know that you're there for them as long as they don't cross you, but trust me it isn't real. If you were to show true love to friends or family or anyone else it would take true faith instead of knowledge. You can know for 100% sure that there is a Satan and a God but that doesn't mean you have true faith in God. Think of it as a friendship. If you know your best friend is Gawd, why would you stress at all? Even if things are not going right and you're stressing you'd know God has your back.

[Breaker]

Okay lets say there isn't a god. Kill yourself, and it won't matter now or ever. Don't be such a pussy. No one will remember you after you've died, and they've died too..... Which is what, a measily 80 years tops? P-U-S-S-A-Y-Z. And I am dead serious. fucking pussies.

[Mexi]

Well since I assume you take this from a USA view the country IS 75% christian... of course you see more christians volunteering, 5% of them could volunteer and that would trounce any other religion that tried. Christians arent the only ones whos bad minority is looked at for being an evil majority. Sounds kind of like a martyrdom complex, be jewish so you can be the 2nd coming of christ!


Sorry, I mentioned proportions earlier in my post and didn't keep it consistent. And usually, another wrongdoing of mine, is referring to Christian vs non-Christian, when I usually mean agnostic / atheist / etc.

[FluxCapacitor]

ALso, when saying christian you have catholics in there too, lets face it, catholics dont give a great view of christianity.

[-Dirby-]

ALso, when saying christian you have catholics in there too, lets face it, catholics dont give a great view of christianity.

Catholics give a very strict and "old" (if you will) view of Christianity. All sects and denominations were birthed out of Catholicism. You may not feel like they do well, and although I have my own opinions on Catholics, who am I to say they worship Jesus in the wrong way?
That's the problem as a whole with Christianity, it has been misrepresented since it's parentage. The most prevalent disassociation is due to the Crusades. That representation for Jesus is absolutely inexcusable.
Then countlessly for centuries, the denomination wars in Ireland...etc.
It's hard to bounce back from these but you know what. No harder than it is to be a Christian in todays world. A lot of people have issues with accepting Christ because that means admitting to being fallen. I do earnestly believe this is a fallen world and that the only reason I am still here is because Jesus took my place on the Cross for me. How big of a sacrifice is that?
But with the connection people have with Christianity and me saying I am a Christian is terrible. When people ask, I tell them I follow Christ. It's less loaded.
Anyway, sorry for the rant (it's not meant to be), I am in the middle of studying for a final :mad:

[FluxCapacitor]

I never said they worship in the wrong way, i am just saying that don't give a great view for people on christianity sometimes. And all denominations of anything christian were birthed out of judaism, it's been down hill ever since. You guys are the bastard child of a hated people.

[Yesbama]

Homie you just contradicted yourself. You talked about living for the sake of love and then swiftly denied it to your own self, and if you can't love yourself it makes you like me - All the love you try to show to anybody is fake. You want to let people know that you're there for them as long as they don't cross you, but trust me it isn't real. If you were to show true love to friends or family or anyone else it would take true faith instead of knowledge. You can know for 100% sure that there is a Satan and a God but that doesn't mean you have true faith in God. Think of it as a friendship. If you know your best friend is Gawd, why would you stress at all? Even if things are not going right and you're stressing you'd know God has your back.


I said not to be selfish. Loving who you are as a person/loving your life and being selfish are two different things.

[Zogo]

Christ wouldn't sacrifice himself for robots, it would erase the point.

are we going to be robots (or robotic like) in heaven?

You want to talk about Christians who have done wrong? Look in the mirror. Christians get put under a microscope and their moves are much more scrutinized because people are looking for wrongdoings in them.

the same can be said of any group/religion.

right, because if you challenge your beliefs youre gauranteed to change! but if you stay the same, youre "close-minded", "ignorant", or otherwise.

no, but when someone willfully ignores something we call that "forced ignorance."

I'm not saying anyone has to watch any specific movie..but when you come to a conclusion on something after a brief viewing..it's just funny.

it kind of reminds me of the millions whining about fahrenheit 9/11 a few years back. 99% of the people complaining and calling the fat guy a terrorist hadn't even seen the thing.

[public_slots_free.mL]

I believe that you should not live life for yourself. A selfish life is an empty life. Should you live it for the biblical god? eh maybe not. I do however think that you should live for love, and you should live to help others and make differences in the lives of others. Your reason for living should not be your career successes, your nice possessions, etc. Those things mean absolutely nothing when you are 70 years old staring chronic illness and impending death in the face.

People need to realize that family, friends, and love are the things worth living for. This includes absolute understanding and compassion for others. That's why religion pisses me off, because it completely contradicts itself in almost every way. If people just realize what they are and accept their roles in society, the entire planet would be better off. Take responsibilities for your successes in life, as well as your mistakes, don't blow it off as the "will of god".

You know what, I would give anything to be able to believe in Christianity. I would love to know that when I die I will live on and so will my friends and loved ones. I would love to know that someone is watching over my every move, and will make sure that everything turns out to be okay. I would love to know that someone has a plan for me.

BUT I don't know that, and as far as I can tell those are simple yearnings that EVERY HUMAN BEING has. That’s why the promise of religion is so great. That’s why the delusion is so strong. Because we ALL want it to be true, so badly that we will ignore plain and simple fact, we will ignore reason, and logic, we will shut ourselves off from opposing thought so that we can grasp to this everlasting hope that our pathetic multicellular biochemical existence isn't all there is to it. Well news flash, that is all there is to it. We all know it, deep down, that’s why people are so sensitive about their religious beliefs. That's why people won't watch or read things that MAY make them honestly THINK about their beliefs.

I'm not going to live my life based on some lullaby my mommy told me when I was 6 to explain things my brain wasn't mature enough to grasp just yet. Well, I've begun to understand and accept the fact that I am a living organism just like my dogs and cats, just like a locust, just like an elephant, and I'm much less confused. I am grateful for every breath I take but I do not attribute that to a guy in the sky who magically wrote the bible through dozens of people thousands of years ago.


quoted for truth

[AntioK]

ALso, when saying christian you have catholics in there too, lets face it, catholics dont give a great view of christianity.


lol whats the problem with the catholics as compared to the other denominations?


I don't think were as bad as the nutty evangelicals, we actually teach evolution in our schools


we believe in things like fossils, the big bang, etc....


I can understand the priest-on child fucking issue, but thats more a problem with a small minority of the clergy, not the entire denomination in general.

[leg]

ian's reply is very good. One is foolish to believe in materalism and selfishness.

If you are a Christian then you should not depend on God to tell you how to go about your daily life. You can learn from God, but you have to do it on your own, Christ wouldn't sacrifice himself for robots, it would erase the point.What if these robots were conscious beings as we are now? :p

[Yesbama]

lol whats the problem with the catholics as compared to the other denominations?


I don't think were as bad as the nutty evangelicals, we actually teach evolution in our schools


we believe in things like fossils, the big bang, etc....


I can understand the priest-on child fucking issue, but thats more a problem with a small minority of the clergy, not the entire denomination in general.

Most catholics aren't very orthodox. Some would argue that praying to anyone other than god (Mary, Pope, etc.) is going against the bible. The sacraments are also a little strange. Catholics seem to just get with the times rather than stay strict to doctrine. I'm not catholic, so I don't know all the facts but they seem very watered down in their beliefs. Personally for me, it should be all or nothing pertaining to religious beliefs.

Maybe my bad perception of Catholics comes from the young people I'm surrounded with that call themselves Catholic, they happen to be among the most confused and worst behaving "Christians" I've ever met.

[stas]

no, but when someone willfully ignores something we call that "forced ignorance."

this is the most ironic thing ever in the history of the catacombs.

other than that, why must somone change their world view if they reject someone elses opinion or belief? and what makes it "forced ignorance", that they dont agree with you?

[Zogo]

I can understand the priest-on child fucking issue, but thats more a problem with a small minority of the clergy, not the entire denomination in general.

you can call it a small minority..but when you realize that these priests are paying millions of dollars (I think I read 60million+ recently) in lawsuits and hush money..well I wouldn't be able to stomach it.

think about that for a minute..tax free money (god's money if you will) being spent to deal with priests molesting people..and some of these people KEEP their positions...yes, these guys are really holy.

Catholics seem to just get with the times rather than stay strict to doctrine.

all religions do that. the "heroes" of the protestant reformation would be laughed at by today's "protestants."

why must somone change their world view if they reject someone elses opinion or belief?

I didn't say that.

and what makes it "forced ignorance", that they dont agree with you?

it's forced because someone is drawing conclusions from something that they haven't observed..so the person is forcing themselves to be ignorant to confirm their previously held beliefs.