Antidepressants

[Breaker]

Antidepressants (http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/12/06/antidepressants.suicide.ap/index.html)

This angers me. Why would these even be on the market if they do the exact opposite of what they are supposed to do? The law needs to intervene, I have many family members on antidepressants, however I have refused to take them after trying zoloft, wellbutrin, and lexapro. They all made things worse, this is what I see happening to family too. I've noticed my anxiety has started to go away steadily in the past month. I've tried to tell them to just chill out, you don't need the meds, but head doctors keep telling them they do, in my lil brothers case the SRS forces him to take depakote and he can't concentrate in school very well. My twin tried to overdose on tryleptol the very day that he left a rehab center, yet his headdoc is still trying to get him on meds. They've given him seroquil and ativan recently, well after they were shown to have horrible effects on the body after long-term use (companies can be sued who sell them). I don't think its worth taking meds for depression or anxiety, they won't fix it. The only way to fix problems like that is to learn whats what.

[dys]

Complete agreement. It's all bullshit. There's a special pill for everything out there nowadays, 99% of which are made up by the pharmaceutical companies, or 'discovered' by asian scientists.

Sleepy Leg Syndrome, that's one of my fav's.

In the 70's people took acid and other drugs to open up their minds and detach from reality for just a little bit. Today people take prozac to make the world seem normal.

[Freakle]

Even though psyche meds are controversial, and often psychiatrists don't really understand how they function, the vast majority of people benefit greatly from them. The problem now is that many people who dont have "major" depressive symptoms, but are simply anxious, extremely shy, or showing some of the symptoms of depression, are being medicated with what amount to be "mood enhancers". It sounds like this mite be what is happening with your family. However, I would ask you family members whether or not they think that the medication is helping or hurting them. The goal is always to make the client feel better, so if they think that it truly is helping to alleviate their symptoms/problems, I would be hesitant to push the issue.

I am interested in what you mean by "worse".

I would also like to read the actual published study. I could easily design a study where I would obtain the same results however the setup used would not be very scientifically sound (which happens a lot more than you would think/hope in psychology).

The reason I ask is, I am interested in their control groups. Someone who is taking medication for depression MOST LIKELY (not always) has a more severe case than someone who doesn't. So in your opinion who is going to be more likely to commit suicide, the more or less severe case?

That would just be one of my concerns with the study.

[Streetwolf]

Correct me if I'm wrong here (and back it up), but ever since the introduction of antidepressants the overall number of suicides (esp teen) has DECREASED significantly.

[bayz]

suicide risk does slightly increase with antidepressants (at least within the first few weeks of starting it). here's why:

when people are so deeply depressed, many even lack the will to go through with killing themselves. after starting the medication, they start to gain more energy, and as they do, they are more likely to actually commit the act of suicide. taking SSRI's or other antidepressant meds are not instant cures, it's a gradual thing.

to say antidepressants "won't fix it" is ridiculous: do you know how many success stories there are? if memory serves me correct, about 50-70% of people who take antidepressants are positively affected. it's regarded as a "miracle drug" within psychology and psychiatrics.

[rabidkevin]

All depends on the person.... I have a friend who if he didnt take his meds every day he would smash your head in to a TV for accidentally breathing on him, but I've never seen him like that when he's on meds. It's all about the chemical balances in the head and some drugs actually work for people.

[the Paper]

suicide risk does slightly increase with antidepressants (at least within the first few weeks of starting it). here's why:

when people are so deeply depressed, many even lack the will to go through with killing themselves. after starting the medication, they start to gain more energy, and as they do, they are more likely to actually commit the act of suicide. taking SSRI's or other antidepressant meds are not instant cures, it's a gradual thing.

to say antidepressants "won't fix it" is ridiculous: do you know how many success stories there are? if memory serves me correct, about 50-70% of people who take antidepressants are positively affected. it's regarded as a "miracle drug" within psychology and psychiatrics.

That's pretty much what I've learned as well.

And dys, if you mean Restless Leg Syndrome, that's an actual disorder....never heard of sleepy leg syndrome though.

[Breaker]

My parents might be better off taking them, but I seriously don't think my twin needs them, especially since he tried to kill himself on some before and he has gotten worse every year no matter what they give him. The only thing that ever helped me was xanax (which helped a lot), but if I took it for a week straight or more it would start to backfire on me, plus I would need more to get the desired effect, and its hard to quit after long-term use and will put you into moodswings if you do quit. What pisses me off is I can not see a way to convince my twin what the pills are doing to him. The only way I can see that happening is by setting a level headed example for him, which makes me think that I was probably the one who caused all this anxiety for the family, but its that kind of mindset that causes my anxiety. Thats why I believe the only way to cure problems like this is to learn for yourself whats what. If I don't let my mind have peace I will continue to have problems. gfg ironic rant?

[dys]

That's pretty much what I've learned as well.

And dys, if you mean Restless Leg Syndrome, that's an actual disorder....never heard of sleepy leg syndrome though.

whatever it's called. It's just another syndrome recently discovered conveniently by the pharms.

I don't claim a lot of people don't need meds, I understand people do and that they benefit from them, but I do fully believe that excuses are made left and right for people to take them that really don't need it.

[Hellsy]

Let's amp this up.

I know an individual who would have blown his brains out if he hadn't received electroconvulsive therapy. He was on a spiral of piss and shit before they started juicing him. Now he's Andy fucking Griffith.

[Freakle]

its closer to 50% omega

[Hellz-Angel01]

Thats why I believe the only way to cure problems like this is to learn for yourself whats what.

what do you mean by this?

[Breaker]

take for example: If you're paranoid around people or when you're in public. There is no reason to be paranoid.

[Harmony]

Seriously, don't try to talk about depression, OCD, and other mental illnesses unless you've experienced them yourself. I'm not talking about your dog getting run over and you feeling "depressed", I'm talking about a physical lack of serotonin in your brain.

[Breaker]

I have had to take Seritonin reuptake inhibitors before. I have a long history of depression through highschool, afterwards it was just anxiety though. I've also done college reports on it.

[bayz]

i think what you're trying to say, breaker, and correct me if i'm wrong, is that you think it's more "genuine" and beneficial if you can actually recover from depression without the use of medication. if this is what you're saying, i agree with you, for one main reason.

antidepressants work in a large number of cases--of course, they don't work all the time. the real problem with antidepressants isn't the fact that suicide risk is higher--because the benefit outweighs the cost in this situtation--but that the relapse rate is extremely high with only the sole use of antidepressants. if someone who is only on antidepressants stops their medication, more times than not, they will simply go back to being depressed. psychotherapy, however, has a much lower relapse rate because it can actually change the way a person cognitively looks at the situation they are in. even with psychotherapy alone, if effective, serotonin levels can raise without the aid of medication.

arguably, the most effective way to treat depression is with a combination of both psychotherapy and drug therapy. SSRI treatment allows for quick relief from the symptoms of depression with minimal side affects as compared to tricyclics and other antidepressants. the psychotherapy can then actually alter the mindset of the person, thus likely preventing the possibility of future relapse.

of course, neither antidepressants nor psychotherapy work for everyone. ECT, though, helps a large percentage of people that aren't effected by psychotherapy or drugs, so the means available to actually lift someone out of depression are plentiful.

but back to your point--i agree with it. i think if you can overcome your problems either through time or psychotherapy (with or without the combination of antidepressants), then you're better off. antidepressants alone, though, and it's likely that as soon as you stop them, you'll regress back to depression.

[DarthGreg]

Incoming wall-of-text.

I've been taking large doses (I'm large) of Celexa and now Lexapro for the last 6 months, and while I don't like being on meds, I can feel a very negative difference when I'm not on them. They enabled me to break my WoW and videogame addiction, which was ruining my life. They've enabled me to make real changes in my life so that for the first time in my college years (this is my 5th) I'm losing weight instead of gaining, making positive academic strides rather than slacking off and covering my ass. The key word here is enable, though.

After having been on the meds for a few months I started to speculate that maybe the positive changes didn't have anything to do with the meds at all, but rather with my own personal willpower combined with the therapy I was recieving. To add to that I had gone through several very uncharasticly deep depressive phases; uncharastic because before I started the meds, I never had any kind of mood disorder. I quit the meds cold turkey and didn't feel any major withdrawal symptoms and I felt great for a few days as the negative side-effects of the drug began to subside (fuzzy/dizzy light-headedness, occasional difficulty concentrating, 0 sex drive, compulsive yawning). At the end of the second week though strange compulsive urges started to crop up and became virtually uncontrollable; it's like my mind was clawing with all it's might during my waking and even sleeping hours for something to obsess over, to drown myself in. It's very difficult to describe but it cripples my ability to make good decisions for myself and fulfill my responsibilities, so I started taking the meds again and the urges eventually got muted to the hollow echo they were before I stopped taking them.

When I said that the key word was enable, what I mean is that the meds didn't cure me. Without my own desire to reform and probably without my therapy I wouldn't have been able to capitalize on the helpful changes made in me. You don't throw antidepressants at someone and expect them to make a turn-around, it's a process and it takes time and sincerity.

[Mexi]

Seriously, don't try to talk about depression, OCD, and other mental illnesses unless you've experienced them yourself. I'm not talking about your dog getting run over and you feeling "depressed", I'm talking about a physical lack of serotonin in your brain.


exactly. you can't just fix things with "gray skies are gonna clear up, put on a happy face!"

your brain has chemicals in it. for a lot of people, they aren't balanced.

[bergenhell]

several people in this thread have no clue what they are talking about.

[Vanquish]

Anti-Depressants are evil. I watched a documentary on the Documentary Channel (go figure) detailing how doctors nowadays are pushed to presribe them by the pharm companies. They have little seminars and conferences, where the companies get a bunch of people in off the street saying "it worked for me, it can work for your patients too"....

If you ask me, anti-depressants don't do fuck all. If someone is depressed, there's a reason for it. Attack the reason, not the symptom. It's like the common cold: They can't cure it, so they come up with drugs that attack the symptoms. It's all one big cop-out. The psychiatrists and doctors who presribe them are either too inept or too lazy to seek out the source of the depression and find a viable means of reversing it, so they go the 'quick fix' route of prescribing a pill.

My best friend (http://forums.thecatacombs.net/showthread.php?t=87606) was on anti-depressants when he tried killing himself. I'm not blaming the drug, but the studies that show that suicidal tendencies actually rise when someone is on them, makes me wonder.

My mother was on them for about 6 months. She's got MS, is partially blind, can barely walk, etc. When she was on them she made the mistake of having a glass of wine with Thanksgiving Dinner... It made her so sick she was bedridden for all of the next day. When that happened, she started doing some research online and looking for second opinions, she stopped taking the drugs. She's been MUCH better ever since, as we've started attacking the reasons for her depression (limited mobility, not being able to participate in certain activities she used to enjoy, being forced into early retirement).

[RogueCheddar]

^^

Depression is pretty common in my family, and my mom has been on anti-depressants for a long, long time. She buys into the chemical imbalance 'not your fault' idea and wont examine other sources of her depression. Hence she never actually gets better, she only feels better, and because of this I refuse to take anti-depressants. I realize that your chemical situation may be off, but I believe it's in that state for reasons completely in your control, and if you actually deal with it instead of numbing yourself you'll be better off in the long run. If you can walk both lines at the same time, power to you. But I mean shit, there are far better drugs to take if I'm in need of a pick-me-up.

[bayz]

it's funny, all the people condemning the drug in this thread are the one's that haven't had success with it. you can't apply the effectiveness of the drug soley based on how you, your friends, or your family, were affected, you have to look at it across all boards, across the entire population. and it's shown that it helps for a lot of people.

If you ask me, anti-depressants don't do fuck all. If someone is depressed, there's a reason for it. Attack the reason, not the symptom. It's like the common cold: They can't cure it, so they come up with drugs that attack the symptoms. It's all one big cop-out. The psychiatrists and doctors who presribe them are either too inept or too lazy to seek out the source of the depression and find a viable means of reversing it, so they go the 'quick fix' route of prescribing a pill.

...what? first of all, it's a psychiatrists job to offer some sort of psychotherapy if they feel a patient is depressed. calling them "inept" or "lazy" is ridiculous, because it's not the psychotherapist that refuses to go through cognitive or behavioral or whatever type of therapy, it's the patient. second, it's debated whether or not the drop in serotonin is a cause or an effect of depression, but if it's the cause, then it's not attacking the symptoms, it's attacking the reason.

I'm not blaming the drug, but the studies that show that suicidal tendencies actually rise when someone is on them, makes me wonder.

if you read my first post, you'll see a widely accepted reason as to why the risk for suicide goes up. this doesn't mean the drug doesn't work; in fact, quite the opposite: it likely means that the drug is working.

[Streetwolf]

Anti-Depressants are evil. I watched a documentary on the Documentary Channel (go figure) detailing how doctors nowadays are pushed to presribe them by the pharm companies. They have little seminars and conferences, where the companies get a bunch of people in off the street saying "it worked for me, it can work for your patients too"....

If you ask me, anti-depressants don't do fuck all. If someone is depressed, there's a reason for it. Attack the reason, not the symptom. It's like the common cold: They can't cure it, so they come up with drugs that attack the symptoms. It's all one big cop-out. The psychiatrists and doctors who presribe them are either too inept or too lazy to seek out the source of the depression and find a viable means of reversing it, so they go the 'quick fix' route of prescribing a pill.

My best friend (http://forums.thecatacombs.net/showthread.php?t=87606) was on anti-depressants when he tried killing himself. I'm not blaming the drug, but the studies that show that suicidal tendencies actually rise when someone is on them, makes me wonder.

My mother was on them for about 6 months. She's got MS, is partially blind, can barely walk, etc. When she was on them she made the mistake of having a glass of wine with Thanksgiving Dinner... It made her so sick she was bedridden for all of the next day. When that happened, she started doing some research online and looking for second opinions, she stopped taking the drugs. She's been MUCH better ever since, as we've started attacking the reasons for her depression (limited mobility, not being able to participate in certain activities she used to enjoy, being forced into early retirement).
Why don't you go take an intro to neuroscience course and then maybe you'll figure out how uneducated you sound.

There are actually CHEMICAL reasons why people are depressed. And the point of the drugs is to FIX these problems. See, there are people out there that conduct research on diseases. They pinpoint the cause of diseases to some lack of a neurotransmitter or excess of one, or an enzyme that doesn't function properly, or a missing protein, etc. Then they come up with a drug that rectifies the problem, whether it serves as an agonist to the NT, an antagonist, introduces more enzyme, protein, etc.

Not every person will be cured by these drugs but it will significantly help them out. Plus there's also the possibility that there are OTHER things wrong with the person that the doctors just didn't catch.

You can't judge a drug based off of 2 or 3 cases. That's like asking one person in the world what they think about 'x' and then concluding that everyone thinks the same way.

[DarthGreg]

Uninformed opinions FTL.

[dys]

Incoming uninformed questions (but an honest one)

Why is it that every year there's more and more diseases/cases discovered that require such drugs? 50 years ago people had issues too but they got through them, and the suicide rate wasn't what it is today. Is it basically due to an exponential increase in the population? Or is it due to the non-stop commercials by various pharmaceutical companies claiming they have a cure for every possible ailment? Has the bar been lowered when declaring someone clinically depressed? Why are doctors so quick to prescribe?

[LunaticWithCandy]

Anti-depressants probably saved my life in high school. Although the first one I was on (Zoloft) made me feel worse and sent me real close to suicide.

What my psychiatrist told me is that they really have no idea which drug is going to work for you and which is going to be worse. They usually try one and if it doesn't work they switch to another til they find one that does it for you. That's what happened in my case.

[bayz]

Incoming uninformed questions (but an honest one)

Why is it that every year there's more and more diseases/cases discovered that require such drugs? 50 years ago people had issues too but they got through them, and the suicide rate wasn't what it is today. Is it basically due to an exponential increase in the population? Or is it due to the non-stop commercials by various pharmaceutical companies claiming they have a cure for every possible ailment? Has the bar been lowered when declaring someone clinically depressed? Why are doctors so quick to prescribe?

there's tons of possible explanations for this but no one really knows exactly. american culture is a lot different from what it was 50 years ago, and people now are a lot more likely to be self-conscious about the way they appear in front of others. also, increasing medical discoveries and technology have allowed us to actually find remedies to illnesses that we otherwise had no treatment for. and doctors really aren't that trigger happy when it comes to prescribing drugs--the most notoriously known overprescribed drugs are ones that are used help people with ADD and ADHD (ritalin, adderall). the newer antidepressants might be slightly overprescribed as well, but you can't place all the blame soley on the doctors: the patients themselves sometimes alter the way they appear in front of a psychiatrist/psychologist in order to get a prescription to the drug.

[Killjoy]

Why don't you go take an intro to neuroscience course and then maybe you'll figure out how uneducated you sound.

There are actually CHEMICAL reasons why people are depressed. And the point of the drugs is to FIX these problems. See, there are people out there that conduct research on diseases. They pinpoint the cause of diseases to some lack of a neurotransmitter or excess of one, or an enzyme that doesn't function properly, or a missing protein, etc. Then they come up with a drug that rectifies the problem, whether it serves as an agonist to the NT, an antagonist, introduces more enzyme, protein, etc.

Not every person will be cured by these drugs but it will significantly help them out. Plus there's also the possibility that there are OTHER things wrong with the person that the doctors just didn't catch.

You can't judge a drug based off of 2 or 3 cases. That's like asking one person in the world what they think about 'x' and then concluding that everyone thinks the same way.

Why don't you get off your high-fucking-horse. I've seen your attitude come out time and again, and to be quite honest it pisses me off to no end - both from you and anybody else who thinks that "education" or "intelligence" literally gives them unlimited power to do or say whatever the fuck they like. Get it through your head, you're a drip of water in the stream of life, and no amount of academic achievement, dental whateverthefuck degrees, or IQ scores will give you the right to be an asshole to someone. FINE, if you disagree with somebody, say so, but don't spout off bullshit demeaning somebody for being "uneducated" when you could have just as easily explained to them, RESPECTFULLY, that evidence exists contrary to their views.

Secondly - consider this: while chemical imbalances may certainly exist in the brain - and may certainly be linked to depression in one way or another - those chemical imbalances, in all likelihood, may have come from a particular pattern of interactions with the environment. So, taking SSRI's may not be treating the "cause" of the depression afterall - maybe it really is just treating the symptom - low levels of serotonin. The cause, in this case, would be unhealthy thought patterns - and a correction would target this unhealthy pattern and attempt to institute new ways of interacting with ones environment. The take home message I'm trying to get across - our biology and our environmentment are intimately connected, and it is, I believe, highly possible that "chemical imbalances" are the product of unhealthy interactions with the environment, and not at all determined by "fate" or the like.

[-Serialchilla-]

I'm on Cymbalta, and I think it's crap. I'm taking Cymbalta, Lamictal and Klonopin

Here's what my doc tells me: I'm manic depressive (bi-polar) but tend to stick to the depressive side. Cymbalta is more of a stimulant anti-depressant, which will work together with the Lamictal. I have had seizures since a wreck in late '03, so the Lamictal stopped that dead in its tracks. It's also supposed to be a mood stabilizer, working with the Cymbalta to try to keep me on an even "upper" keel. Now, the problem with being on this "upper" side is that I have to remain cool and calm. That is (IMO) my major problem. Klonopin is there to do what benzodiazepines do best: tell me to sit down and shutup.

I've been on more medicines (and to more doctors) than I can count...but it's worth a try
Effexor (Twice) - Didn't do anything for me, but it worked wonders on my cousin. Then again, if i beat the same lymphoma that killed my grandma, i'd tend to be pretty fucking happy too.

Paxil - Did nothing but kill my sex drive.

Depakote - (Twice, this shit is THE DEVIL)

Abilify - Couldn't walk straight. If you ever see "abnormal gait" as one of the side effects, stop taking that shit. It's bad. Bad.

Trileptal - Made me sick.

Remeron - Made me sleep all day.

Seroquel - Made primarily for schizophrenics. They said it would help me sleep. I told them it helped me feel like shit. Three months later, I see it on law firm commercials.

Xanax - Worked like a charm, but had to stop because of the unreal addiction.


Which will bring us back to Doe, a deer, a fe...nevermind. Point is, no matter what I tell my docs about the anti-depressants not being worth a shit, they insist on keeping me on them, not even giving it a trial run. I tell them the klonopin is the only thing that's working, and since it's also an anti-convulsant, why not just keep me on that? Why? Because they're scared of the fucking DEA. I'm moving to Canada.

[FireWall]

Why don't you get off your high-fucking-horse. I've seen your attitude come out time and again, and to be quite honest it pisses me off to no end - both from you and anybody else who thinks that "education" or "intelligence" literally gives them unlimited power to do or say whatever the fuck they like.

Get it through your head, you're a drip of water in the stream of life, and no amount of academic achievement, dental whateverthefuck degrees, or IQ scores will give you the right to be an asshole to someone. FINE, if you disagree with somebody, say so, but don't spout off bullshit demeaning somebody for being "uneducated" when you could have just as easily explained to them, RESPECTFULLY, that evidence exists contrary to their views.

It looks like someone is too sensitive for their own good. All that Streetwolf suggested was that certain individuals educate themselves, which is probably a good idea if they would like to arrive at valid conclusions; and in response, you wrote an entire paragraph of nothing but anti-intellectual, ad hominem nonsense. Take your pitiful character assassinations elsewhere and please, please, please stay there.

The following paragraph is my favorite part. After denouncing the "smart people," the true expert chimes in:

Secondly - consider this: while chemical imbalances may certainly exist in the brain - and may certainly be linked to depression in one way or another - those chemical imbalances, in all likelihood, may have come from a particular pattern of interactions with the environment. So, taking SSRI's may not be treating the "cause" of the depression afterall - maybe it really is just treating the symptom - low levels of serotonin. The cause, in this case, would be unhealthy thought patterns - and a correction would target this unhealthy pattern and attempt to institute new ways of interacting with ones environment. The take home message I'm trying to get across - our biology and our environmentment are intimately connected, and it is, I believe, highly possible that "chemical imbalances" are the product of unhealthy interactions with the environment, and not at all determined by "fate" or the like.

Yes, the environment is able to affect the concentration of serotonin in the synaptic cleft, but there is no evidence that indicates that the removal of environmental stimuli (that may or may not exist) is a viable alternative to the conventional treatment of depression.

[Streetwolf]

Why don't you get off your high-fucking-horse. I've seen your attitude come out time and again, and to be quite honest it pisses me off to no end - both from you and anybody else who thinks that "education" or "intelligence" literally gives them unlimited power to do or say whatever the fuck they like. Get it through your head, you're a drip of water in the stream of life, and no amount of academic achievement, dental whateverthefuck degrees, or IQ scores will give you the right to be an asshole to someone. FINE, if you disagree with somebody, say so, but don't spout off bullshit demeaning somebody for being "uneducated" when you could have just as easily explained to them, RESPECTFULLY, that evidence exists contrary to their views.
I am not sure which other posts of mine you are referring to but I will only write stuff like you quoted when the person I am quoting sounds exactly the same way.

Maybe I sound like I'm on a 'high-fucking horse' because I mainly reply to threads where I know the answer (ie MATH related threads). I back away from the majority of threads in this forum.

Though I love how you gave your 'don't be an asshole to others' speech in such a nice manner.

[Mexi]

Incoming uninformed questions (but an honest one)

Why is it that every year there's more and more diseases/cases discovered that require such drugs? 50 years ago people had issues too but they got through them, and the suicide rate wasn't what it is today. Is it basically due to an exponential increase in the population? Or is it due to the non-stop commercials by various pharmaceutical companies claiming they have a cure for every possible ailment? Has the bar been lowered when declaring someone clinically depressed? Why are doctors so quick to prescribe?


lol, i was going to quote this and reply with my response, but for some reason i accidentally quotes lyckan's response, which coincidentally was basically the same as mine.

[mag]

Some of you are getting mood stabilitators, anti-anxiety, and antidepressents mixed up.

whoever spoke of the seroquel i agree it is the pits, the worst thing i've ever been perscribed. zoloft gave me the worst headaches i've ever experienced. welbutrin did nothing. depacote got taken off the market. i'm on serzone and in europe it's banned but i've never had a problem, but when i don't take it i don't notice much difference. Lamictal seems to be decent as a mood stabilitator but Klonopin (a rival to the anti-anxiety medication Xanax) leaves me a lot less loopy than bars and i have way less dependancy. I think a lot of drugs don't go through the amount of research needed to be put on the market, but I guess a lot of people would agree with that.

Those of you that like xanax though should try out klonopin, and you didn't hear it from me but resell is like 2-2.50 a piece on the streets.

[motang]

holy fucking donkey...

rofl...just...rofl...

keep it coming!

[Hellsy]

Random fact: I've met Streetwolf offline. He's taller than I.

[Scorcher]

Incoming uninformed questions (but an honest one)

Why is it that every year there's more and more diseases/cases discovered that require such drugs? 50 years ago people had issues too but they got through them

The practice of medicine is a science, and as science progresses, new things are discovered. 1000 years ago people had issues, and they had no explanations for them. Doctors and researchers today are trying to figure out these issues and figure out the best way to treat them. As this is a science, experiments are necessary, and these experiments will continue.

[Streetwolf]

Random fact: I've met Streetwolf offline. He's taller than I.
ROFL

That is true.

Rob where are you nowadays?

[Hellsy]

Philadelphia. Tinkering with MA thesis. Being in love.

[pitsniper]

I guess I'll add in with my uninformed position

what really scares me is that people are increasingly coming to terms with the fact that natural remedies, or just feeling better is the answer to things. As if people were living longer, everything was easier, and things were perfect 1500 years ago.

I think its a lot more complicated. Like someone said comparing two eras from today to 50 years ago is kind of silly to do, too many factors and changes. Since everyone is different, a lot of these drugs will have drastically different affects on people. So maybe one persons opinion of how they were changed by some drug, although important and valuable, is often moot when conducting a larger analysis.

It was also said that drugs are often overprescribed. I think the problem is just lack of knowledge and understanding but it is unrealistic to have everyone educated and informed in the process (doctors, patients, etc) about the drugs.

[AntioK]

The practice of medicine is a science, and as science progresses, new things are discovered. 1000 years ago people had issues, and they had no explanations for them. Doctors and researchers today are trying to figure out these issues and figure out the best way to treat them. As this is a science, experiments are necessary, and these experiments will continue.


As well as rush out unsafe drugs as quickly as possible to make billions in profit for the parent company and then to shut down the sub-company when lawsuits come into play....


I mean seriously, restless leg syndrome? you know what you're legs are telling you? Get off your ass and go for a walk.

[Scorcher]

As well as rush out unsafe drugs as quickly as possible to make billions in profit for the parent company and then to shut down the sub-company when lawsuits come into play....


I mean seriously, restless leg syndrome? you know what you're legs are telling you? Get off your ass and go for a walk.

I didn't say the system was perfect, but that's how it is.

[DarthGreg]

There's nothing wholesome about the drug industry, but that's no reason to dismiss antidepressants on the whole.

[the Paper]

I mean seriously, restless leg syndrome? you know what you're legs are telling you? Get off your ass and go for a walk.


Yeah, might as well tell those HIV positive motherfuckers to get an immune system right!!!!????? What a bunch of pussies.

[motang]

i have a list of 10 dummies on this thread thus far...my sweet, sweet dummies

for the love of god please keep spouting da good truth!

i thank thee, and tip my hat to thee, fine academy, for providing a most comfortable respite for weary but informed travelers...not only may we rest here, but after simple cursory examination we may take great comfort (NAY, we are wrapped in blankets of egyptian cotton lined with stitched mantra's that are whispered to intelligent ears in sweet supplication)...you have given us fodder for our own delerious pleasure...we use it to bolster our overinflated sense of self-worth and confidence (could it get any higher?), but most importantly, it confirms our absolute, unequivocal superitory over the common populace...truly...i thank thee truly...

86% of what has been claimed on this thread is dung being gathered by excited beetles who will, no doubt, in the end, be eating shit...

i declare myself officially engaged in this debate, but i will be working 14 hours tomorrow, and the next day, so i must humbly ask patience...cover your asses bishes! i do, however, reserve some small amout of respect for firewall, darthgreg, and lyckantropen

i say with unapologetic arrogance, you are nothing more than ad hominem attacks that i've choked back and swallowed, leaving me gassy and pissed off...

i will address, in no particular order, uniformed opinions, typed vomit, made up explanations, and typed vomit

my most humble respects,

motang

[Karms]

It's amazing that the majority of people in this thread talking about how evil they are probably haven't dealt with depression. No, not "Oh well someone laughed at me the other day so I feel sad" depression, the kind where you don't want to live anymore, and sometimes try not to.

I have, at the risk of being poked fun at, been on prozac for about a year and I haven't felt all these urges to kill myself like some people have been saying I should have by now. Maybe i'm just that amazing, or maybe some people in this thread have no idea what they're talking about.

Could go either way.

[motang]

bravo karms...

[Rothschild]

suicide risk does slightly increase with antidepressants (at least within the first few weeks of starting it). here's why:

when people are so deeply depressed, many even lack the will to go through with killing themselves. after starting the medication, they start to gain more energy, and as they do, they are more likely to actually commit the act of suicide. taking SSRI's or other antidepressant meds are not instant cures, it's a gradual thing.

to say antidepressants "won't fix it" is ridiculous: do you know how many success stories there are? if memory serves me correct, about 50-70% of people who take antidepressants are positively affected. it's regarded as a "miracle drug" within psychology and psychiatrics.

which drug, or all you referring to all of them?

[Rothschild]

I used to think the drug companies were nothing but bad when I didn't understand how important it is for some people to be on medications for them to function in society. People with bipolar disorder for instance seriously cannot act as normal human beings if we didn't have some of the drugs availible today. My opinion however in which the companies take advantage of the system, creating monopolies within their market... not cool. It's that kind of image in fact I believe is keeping the pharmasudicals from actually being respected among most.

You'd be suprised how much more careful doctors are now about perscribing medications such as antidepressents. When the beniefits outway the costs though, then that makes it the reason why we turn to pills in the first place. Seriously i know this thread is going to turn into a pill vs no pill debate, and what I'm trying to stress is that we need to find the right area in between those two lines, so that we can help the people that need it meanwhile not give it to rich alcohalic douches who need an aderall perscription so they can pass their classes.

[Harmony]

what really scares me is that people are increasingly coming to terms with the fact that natural remedies, or just feeling better is the answer to things.
wait, what? The people truely suffering from mental diseases aren't taking medications to get high or "feel good", they're doing it in an attempt to feel normal. Of course there will always be people who are going to abuse drugs, but like it's been said in this thread, a lot of people would rather not take medications at all due to side effects, ect.

[Yesbama]

Seriously i know this thread is going to turn into a pill vs no pill debate, and what I'm trying to stress is that we need to find the right area in between those two lines, so that we can help the people that need it meanwhile not give it to rich alcohalic douches who need an aderall perscription so they can pass their classes.

LOL
I have three suitemates, all from NJ, all rich douches, all drink 5 nights a week. One of them is a fucking moron, family has millions, he snorts aderall just so he can "study". God I hate New Jersey.

[InnerFury]

MONTE!!!!!!!!!!!!

[stas]

wait, what? The people truely suffering from mental diseases aren't taking medications to get high or "feel good", they're doing it in an attempt to feel normal. Of course there will always be people who are going to abuse drugs, but like it's been said in this thread, a lot of people would rather not take medications at all due to side effects, ect.

hes agreeing with you. hes saying its scary how many people are starting to think you can just cure yourself by trying to feel better or using the right natural ingredients, etc.

[Harmony]

hes agreeing with you.
my bad, I misread what he wrote the first time I looked at it. My point still stands, though.

[k c boo-ya]

wow this thread.

if you get the right antidepressent it fixes your whole life. now i was never depressed but i had an extreme case of social anxiety, like i could not respond to people and i constantly had the most illogical thoughts in my head all the time. started taking an SSRI and after a few weeks I was a normal teenager. It got me off this game into the world, talking to people and feeling like "me" and not a movie I had no control over.

say whatever you want but if i had to make the choice again I'd do it sooner. in fact this message board introduced me to the idea oh so many years ago. i would rather have all my limbs cut off then feel as helpless as I did before I started taking SSRIs.

[Gr8Shot]

i was perscribed lexapro because one of its side effects would help treat something i have a problem with. i'm not depressed so would taking the drug bring about any negative effects in me? or if there is no chemical imbalance in me to fix does the drug do no harm?

also i dont get how xanax is still legal, that drug is a wildfire in my neighborhood and has become more popular than alcohol. klonopin is on its way up too, i've seen people take it before fights and the shit they've done on it was incredible. abuse of drugs really scares me :(

[Vanquish]

WARNING: WHAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO READ IS MY OPINION AND ONLY MY OPINION. I DO NOT CLAIM THAT ANY OR ALL OF THIS IS FACT, OR THAT ANY OR ALL OF THIS WILL WORK FOR OTHERS. I AM WHO I AM, I BELIEVE WHAT I WANT TO BELIEVE. IF YOU CAN PERSUADE ME TO CHANGE BELIEFS, GREAT, IF YOU CAN'T, THAT'S FINE TOO.

I couldn't care less about how uneducated I sound. If you, Streetwolf, or anyone else for that matter, judge people by their education level or merely the perception of their education level, then I pity you far more than you could ever imagine. I never pretended to educated, I never pretended to be smarter than anyone else, and I certainly never pretended to understand the intricate workings of the brain. However, that doesn't deny me the ability (ergo the right) to have an opinion. All I state are opinions. All anyone can state are opinions.

This post could get a little long, but I'll do the best I can to back up what I believe with the reasons why I believe it. They may not have supporting facts, but I believe humans are fallible creatures and that anyone could find facts to support anything on their agenda if they searched hard and long enough. If someone so chooses to disagree, that's great. Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one.

One flaw I've seen so far in this thread, is the acceptance of current medical knowledge on depression as fact, as the be-all-end-all-we-know-it-all answer. This couldn't be any farther from the truth: The more we know, the more we realize we don't know.

I believe that there may be cases where someone cannot control the depression themselves, and therefore may benefit from the use of anti-depressants in the short term, while they deal with the things in their personal life that are making them depressed, but I know from personal experience that there really are very few people who cannot control it themselves with grit and determination. Most have just simply given up, their doctors are lazy or otherwise unwilling to try other means of help, and turn to anti-depressants as the 'cure in pill form'.

I have many reasons for believing what I believe. I was clinically depressed and suicidal as a teen. Not the "oh someone made fun of me boo hoo I'm gonna kill myself" depressed as someone stated before, I actually went to psychiatrists, counselors, doctors, etc. I was depressed for 6 years, cried myself to sleep every night, wrote many suicide notes. I was a wreck. I skipped 3 months worth of school in a single year, and no less than 2 months during the other years. I told my parents I wanted to kill myself, even put a loaded 30-30 in my mouth but didn't have the balls to pull the trigger. I was suicidal, I envied the idea of feeling nothing over feeling the pain I felt, but I didn't want to die.

I had many doctors try to put me on anti-depressants. I refused every one of them. I refused to accept that I really had a chemical imbalance in my brain, and was determined to help myself through it.

Before, I always looked at life like this: There are good times, there are bad times. If the bad times out numbered the good times, then there was no point in living. I believe most people think along the same lines in one way or another, whereby if the bad times out number the good, they're depressed.

I pulled myself through it. I realized that I wasn't any different than anyone else, that we all go through the same things. The difference is in the perspective. One thing I've learned, is that for most people, depression is a choice. Everyone on this planet can find a reason to be depressed. There are those who look at the glass as half empty, and those who look at the glass as half full. I've learned not to sweat the shit I can't change, to not dwell on the past, but to learn from my mistakes and move on. I've learned that everyone needs a stable base to form their emotional self around, and that something as simple as having a messy bedroom can set someone down the path to depression by upsetting that stable base. I've learned that everyone is their own harshest critic, and that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I've learned that depression usually stems from other, more minor issues, such as low self-esteem, low self confidence, social anxiety, etc. I beleive that, given enough will power, grit, determination, and support from loved ones, people can overcome these issues on their own by seeking out the underlying causes, and in turn reverse their depression.

I DO NOT DENY THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO GENUINELY NEED ANTI-DEPRESSANTS DUE TO A GENETIC DEFECT. I do not debate that. My problem isn't with the drugs, it's with the doctors who are too quick to point to them as the answer to someones depression problems. Too often doctors hand out the pills without trying to figure out why someone is depressed, and without trying to find a way to solve it.

A lot of depressed people don't want to be happy, they thrive on the attention and pity they get from others.

[phate]

is it me or is the proportion of people on the cats on antidepressants, mood modifiers, and whatnot wayyyy higher than the general population? this thread is probably skewed even higher because people want to post their own experiences, but i couldnt name one person who is on those kind of meds.

[AntioK]

is it me or is the proportion of people on the cats on antidepressants, mood modifiers, and whatnot wayyyy higher than the general population? this thread is probably skewed even higher because people want to post their own experiences, but i couldnt name one person who is on those kind of meds.


The Catacombs and competitive TFC in general are very depressing.

[Killjoy]

Yes, the environment is able to affect the concentration of serotonin in the synaptic cleft, but there is no evidence that indicates that the removal of environmental stimuli (that may or may not exist) is a viable alternative to the conventional treatment of depression.

Reaaallllyyyyy. I guess that little approach called "cognitive behavioural therapy" (heard of it?) is just a phase then, right?

And the decades-long support of this approach is unfounded, anti-intellectual nonsense, right?

And you know that behavioural therapy includes (among other things) removal of certain environmental stimuli, right?

And you know that cognitive behavioural therapy is ITSELF one of the conventional treatments for depression, right?

Apparently not. Either that, or you just weren't thinking, at all, when you replied.

Need further evidence of this?

you wrote an entire paragraph of ... ad hominem nonsense.

Look up "ad hominem", pal. I didn't attack streetwolf's argument on the basis of his character. I didn't even mention whether I thought his argument was right or wrong. I called him out for being an asshole and then provided an alternative perspective on the antidepressant/neurotransmitter discussion. That I even have to bring this up is a waste of time - arguing about semantics is fucking stupid, but damnit man, you're making me do it.

Need more evidence that you should be less eager to flaunt your self-rightenousness, and instead more eager to think carefully, and perhaps gain some humility?

After denouncing the "smart people"...

Denouncing the smart people? Did you even read my post, or were you just too busy skimming it so you could get to your turn to speak, and once again show the world your brilliance?

If you understand nothing else, understand this: I have no problem with smart people, and you'll be hard pressed to find a piece of evidence anywhere in the world suggesting that I do. My beef lies with people like you, whose sense of self-worth is so far out of touch with reality that it allows them to shamelessly demean others.

Not only is doing so hurtful to others, its hurtful to yourself. Think about it, if you become encapsulated with your own perspectives out of pre-emptive hostility towards perspectives running contrary to your own, how will you ever be the "objective guiding light" you seem so desperate to become?

[Vanquish]

The Catacombs and competitive TFC in general are very depressing.

This isn't a lie. The simple fact we're on a website that is essentially a fan site for an online video game league, for a game that requires years of practice to even be 'decent' at, hints at less social interaction than most would deem appropriate. I know I turned to games when I was depressed, they're an escape from reality. You don't think about the school paper you forgot to do, or the fact that your dad's an alcoholic, or that your best friend just backstabbed you, while you're playing TFC. The problem arises when people spend more time escaping from than living in reality.

[Killjoy]

This isn't a lie. The simple fact we're on a website that is essentially a fan site for an online video game league, for a game that requires years of practice to even be 'decent' at, hints at less social interaction than most would deem appropriate. I know I turned to games when I was depressed, they're an escape from reality. You don't think about the school paper you forgot to do, or the fact that your dad's an alcoholic, or that your best friend just backstabbed you, while you're playing TFC. The problem arises when people spend more time escaping from than living in reality.

And to think that some people say removing these things (negative environmental factors) isn't helpful.... :rolleyes:

[|RES|arod]

Denouncing the smart people? Did you even read my post, or were you just too busy skimming it so you could get to your turn to speak, and once again show the world your brilliance?

If you understand nothing else, understand this: I have no problem with smart people, and you'll be hard pressed to find a piece of evidence anywhere in the world suggesting that I do. My beef lies with people like you, whose sense of self-worth is so far out of touch with reality that it allows them to shamelessly demean others.

Not only is doing so hurtful to others, its hurtful to yourself. Think about it, if you become encapsulated with your own perspectives out of pre-emptive hostility towards perspectives running contrary to your own, how will you ever be the "objective guiding light" you seem so desperate to become?Thank you for bringing Firewall down to earth. I am so tired of reading his self-righteous posts on these forums.

Continue the debate.

[red baron]

Didn't read.

Took Zoloft for 1+ year. Worked for me. Realized I didn't need it anymore. Weened myself off of it. Med free for 3 years.

This kind of shit is very situational and each situation is different.

[FireWall]

Reaaallllyyyyy. I guess that little approach called "cognitive behavioural therapy" (heard of it?) is just a phase then, right?

Perhaps I failed to properly assess the clarity of my argument. I stated that there is no evidence that indicates that removal of environmental stimuli (that may or may not exist) is a viable alternative to the conventional treatment of depression. In response, you decided that it was appropriate to bring up cognitive behavioral therapy. If you were truly familiar with cognitive behavioral therapy, however, you would understand that it is founded on how patients respond to environmental stimuli, not the elimination of the stimuli themselves, which is a feat that is probably not possible under many circumstances. Additionally, the efficacy of cognitive behavioral therapy is relatively low when it is not used in conjunction with medications. Combination therapy is the norm. (The following is just a side note: I like how you decided to adopt the British variant of the word behavior in sharp contrast to the rest of your diction. Perhaps the primacy of your Google endeavors resulted in your failure to check the consistency of your vernacular.)

Look up "ad hominem", pal. I didn't attack streetwolf's argument on the basis of his character. I didn't even mention whether I thought his argument was right or wrong. I called him out for being an asshole

Here is what Wikipedia has to offer:

A (fallacious) ad hominem argument has the basic form:

1. Contention: Claim X is false.
2. Premise: A makes claim X.
3. Co-premise: There is something objectionable about A.

That is a rigid definition. Another source expands it a little bit:

Attacking the person instead of attacking his argument.

And a final source provides the broadest definition of all:

Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason.

The final definition is probably the most representative of how the word is actually used (after all, it comes from a dictionary), and many linguists would argue that the meaning of words is established by how they are used, not how they ought to be used. And as the context of my use of the term “ad hominem” suggests, the final definition is the one that I had in mind. In any case, whether or not what you said was strictly ad hominem (i.e., with regard to the most rigorous definition of the term), it was definitely a character assassination, and it lacked persuasive power. Your post would have been much more respectable without it.

Need more evidence that you should be less eager to flaunt your self-rightenousness, and instead more eager to think carefully, and perhaps gain some humility?
I am not sure if I should laugh at that question or roll my eyes.

Denouncing the smart people? Did you even read my post, or were you just too busy skimming it so you could get to your turn to speak, and once again show the world your brilliance?

Do not confuse my interpretation of your tone with an attempt to put words in your mouth or erect straw men.

If you understand nothing else, understand this: I have no problem with smart people, and you'll be hard pressed to find a piece of evidence anywhere in the world suggesting that I do. My beef lies with people like you, whose sense of self-worth is so far out of touch with reality that it allows them to shamelessly demean others.

Who are you to speak of the self-worth of people who you do not know to any meaningful extent whatsoever?

Not only is doing so hurtful to others, its hurtful to yourself. Think about it, if you become encapsulated with your own perspectives out of pre-emptive hostility towards perspectives running contrary to your own, how will you ever be the "objective guiding light" you seem so desperate to become?

Your analysis is incredibly poor because it is founded on various fatuous assumptions and underlying normative ideas that lack cogency. Among other problematic features of your argument is the assumption that my “sense of self-worth” (something that you are not knowledgeable about) is “far out of touch with reality.” Another problematic feature is the conclusion that the previously examined phenomenon is responsible for notable disrespect toward other people (presumably outside of the present discussion) that is “hurtful” to me and other people (something that you would have little or knowledge about). There are also other small details that warrant criticism; e.g., you state that I am “desperate” to become an “objective guiding light.” Is it really necessary for me to pick apart that paragraph any more than I already have? Please spare me your amateur psychotherapy.

Thank you for bringing Firewall down to earth. I am so tired of reading his self-righteous posts on these forums.

Yes, he certainly "brought me down to Earth." :rolleyes: How does it feel to cheerlead from the sidelines?

[bayz]

Additionally, the efficacy of cognitive behavioral therapy is relatively low when it is not used in conjunction with medications. Combination therapy is the norm.

actually, incorrect: psychotherapy and drug therapy have roughly the same recovery rate from depression. (see DeRubeis et al., 1999; Hollon et al., 2002; Weissman & Markowitz, 2002). combination is the most effective, though.

[FireWall]

actually, incorrect: psychotherapy and drug therapy have roughly the same recovery rate from depression. (see DeRubeis et al., 1999; Hollon et al., 2002; Weissman & Markowitz, 2002). combination is the most effective, though.

I meant that the efficacy of psychotherapy is low compared to the efficacy of combination therapy. That is why I said "relatively." I should have been more clear.

[Breaker]

It would be pretty dumb for head docs to hand out bags of magic shrooms to depressed people, so why don't scientists work on a pill made by certain extracts from the shrooms? They do relieve depression and anxiety, they do so very effectively (unless you're not really depressed, then you just get high). Sure it wouldn't work for everyone, but niether does zoloft or anything else. Shrooms aren't addictive, have no withdrawl symptoms, and if you attempted to abuse them you'd eventually just build a tolerance that can dissipate quickly. Some people do get a Px for shrooms when they are terminally ill because it relieves the anxieties that go with sitting on your death bed.
Nah, makes more sense to forcefeed my brother suicidal depakote pills, if he doesn't take them he goes to kid prison. a big fuck you to srs and anyone who works for them. redrum works.


^ this is me sober, thought about deleting it.

[adamantium]

Let's amp this up.

I know an individual who would have blown his brains out if he hadn't received electroconvulsive therapy. He was on a spiral of piss and shit before they started juicing him. Now he's Andy fucking Griffith.

I haven't read the entire thread yet, but saw this and decided to reply. Whoever posted it before (don't remember and too lazy to look :D) was right, somewhere around 50% of ACTUAL depressed patients show good reactions to at least some kind of antidepressant. Sometimes it will take a long time to find the right one though, it's just a matter of trying one after another until you find one that's right for you. After that, if none of the antidepressants work, there is about a 50/50 chance that ECT will get the job done. And when it works, it works.

[adamantium]

I DO NOT DENY THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO GENUINELY NEED ANTI-DEPRESSANTS DUE TO A GENETIC DEFECT. I do not debate that. My problem isn't with the drugs, it's with the doctors who are too quick to point to them as the answer to someones depression problems. Too often doctors hand out the pills without trying to figure out why someone is depressed, and without trying to find a way to solve it.

A lot of depressed people don't want to be happy, they thrive on the attention and pity they get from others.

Originally (after your first post, that is) I was going to argue with you, because I thought that you were denying this last point. However, now that you have clarified and I see what you really meant, I am going to agree with you. I believe that the percentage of people who are taking antidepressants that actually need them is small, and most would benefit more from some sort of therapy and/or environmental change.

It would be pretty dumb for head docs to hand out bags of magic shrooms to depressed people, so why don't scientists work on a pill made by certain extracts from the shrooms? They do relieve depression and anxiety, they do so very effectively (unless you're not really depressed, then you just get high). Sure it wouldn't work for everyone, but niether does zoloft or anything else. Shrooms aren't addictive, have no withdrawl symptoms, and if you attempted to abuse them you'd eventually just build a tolerance that can dissipate quickly. Some people do get a Px for shrooms when they are terminally ill because it relieves the anxieties that go with sitting on your death bed.
Nah, makes more sense to forcefeed my brother suicidal depakote pills, if he doesn't take them he goes to kid prison. a big fuck you to srs and anyone who works for them. redrum works.

Now, my knowledge on shrooms is limited as I have not learned as much about them as have have more clinical drugs, but this is what I know.

The main psychoactive component in shrooms is muscimol, which is a GABA agonist. While they do not make (as far as I know) any type of clinical medication that contains muscimol, they do make a large amount that do the exact same thing, that is, they are GABA agonists as well. The benzodiazepines are probably the most common form of this type of drug, which includes Xanax, Klonopin, Valium, et al. So, the answer to your question, "why don't they just take the drug out of shrooms and give make a pill out of it", is that they already have, in a way.

[Zogo]

This angers me. Why would these even be on the market if they do the exact opposite of what they are supposed to do? The law needs to intervene...

because the FDA approved them and they know what's best for us.
the law has intervened and shown itself to be inept, clumsy and corrupt in its regulation.

about 50-70% of people who take antidepressants are positively affected.

50-70% is not a great percentage.

[Zogo]

if these drugs are PROVEN to drive people to suicide then why are they still legal?

also i dont get how xanax is still legal, that drug is a wildfire in my neighborhood and has become more popular than alcohol.

drug companies approve of it..and they're buddies with those working for the FDA.

but i couldnt name one person who is on those kind of meds.

they probably keep it a secret.

It would be pretty dumb for head docs to hand out bags of magic shrooms

check this out..

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061221/ap_on_he_me/psilocybin_study

[motang]

though i had previously anticipated reigning fire down upon the collective idiocy demonstrated above, i quickly sobered up and begged my inner demon to restrain himself...i had in fact accomplished such until zogo posted words which i can only construe as a direct attack upon all things decent, holy, logical, and remotely informed...

before i begin, i need to say something loud and clear...modern antidepressants are among the most well tolerated and most efficacious drugs that exist today...all this bullshit about suicide and horribly drastic consequences are perpetuated by greed, lawsuits, and a system that persecutes to the fullest almost miniscule percentages...hey "breaker," seriously, you're right...i wonder the same thing...how can antidepressants exist when they do the exact opposite of what they're supposed to do? i mean, they like make people cut their wrists and shit...it's not like fucking millions of people have been helped by these drugs...they pretty much just make gothic jane go crazy and die...

look at the fucking statistics, and tell me what you would do as a doctor...to prescribe, or not to prescribe...billy comes in, feeling horrible and hopeless...hrmm...what to do? it's not even debatable...these drugs (particularly SSRI's like zoloft and prozac and paxil) have a higher safety profile than fucking aspirin...and oh wait, they improve quality of life in the vast majority of patients with major depression...this is fucking ridiculous...if you are a family physician (which i'm not) and ANYONE comes into your office complaining of depression, you are completely justified in prescribing a SSRI...the safety profile is overwhelmingly documented, and the risk/benefit analysis isn't even up for debate...i say again to you silly, silly bastards, modern antidepressants have nothing to do with the bullshit that's being portrayed in this thread...

50-70% is not a great percentage.
in reference to:

about 50-70% of people who take antidepressants are positively affected.

dude what? fucking WHAT?...i can't make this look ridiculous enough...do you have any clue about the real percentages involved in modern pharmacology? FIFTY TO SEVENTY PERCENT PRETTY MUCH CONSTITUTES A MIRACLE DRUG. now, i don't care what context you could posibly be basing this around, and i have no idea how you're going to try and defend something this dumb (though between you and firewall i suspect there's a way)...look, if i have a drug that can have positive outcomes on FIVE TO SEVEN PEOPLE OUT OF TEN, it's fucking christmas, no debate...those are unfuckingbelievable results...

most drugs we have now, no matter what kind of ailment you're talking about, from CHF to heart attacks to stroke to kidney failure, have nowhere near this kind of success rate...the studies we use to guide us in treatment usually show a very small percentage of improvement/successful prophylaxis, as in like, maybe five to ten percent improvement...if it's statistically significant, you're damn right we go ahead and use these drugs, despite sometimes drastic side effects...if you can save even 10 people out of 100 according to the literature, this becomes the standard of treatment...guy, oh rofl guy, if we had drugs that improved random and common pathologies FIFTY TO SEVENTY PERCENT OF THE TIME, THE HOSPITALS WOULD BE FUCKING EMPTY (hyperbole yes)...the point is, fifty to seventy percent (and i don't particularly agree that these results are even fact, but you, with your knack for making shit up that sounds believable, made the statement that it wasn't particularly impressive) is a ridiculously impressive number...say it with me, smug finger-pointing guy, modern antidepressants have revolutionized the treatment of depression…they improve lives…they save lives…they do it every fucking day…

i guess i could start up with firewall again, though the last time i tried the thread was vaulted before i could reply to the nitpicking...combination therapy, though proven to be the most efficacious means of combating depression, isn't a real alternative for the vast majority of people...compliance is the issue...although psychotherapy is indeed shown to be comparable to the results of empirical SSRI treatment, the fact remains that depressed outpatients simply do not follow up with their sessions (this is certainly debatable, and i base this on experience rather than the current research, if it even exists)...patients are simply much more likely to take a once a day pill and improve than they are to go to and pay for multiple therapy sessions where they're forced to discuss and work on their thought processes...combination therapy, though borne out in the research, is simply not a commonly practiced route for most patients, no matter what the studies say...i, personally, just like most patients, would rather take a pill, especially a pill that is well tolerated with an extremely high success rate…

and good god, zogo, would you shut up with your conspiracy theories...stick to a subject that you actually have experience with, like pot (actually, i'm not even sure you smoke, but i don't remember)...
drug companies approve of it..and they're buddies with those working for the FDA.
seriously, guy, instead of throwing out crap about big business, tell me what it is you really know about drug companies and their inner workings...yeah dude, i know you have intimate knowledge of the whole FDA/pharm company link, but i'm just a curious bystander that wants to know the real deal...i mean, i deal with pharm reps every day, i write government grants, i'm an advisor for 2 different pharm companies, and i prescribe drugs on a daily basis, but help me yo...quit being selfish with the low down and tell me what's really going on...you threw out a sarcastic claim...back it up...show me...show somebody who is in the know and deals with it every day...i mean, you already told me all about pot and i totally changed the way i deal with patients (i.e. they're all high as balls now and doing great!)...with your latest posted link on psilocybin i'm gonna double my income on OCD patients and escape lawsuits foreva!! you are a treasure, kind sir...please keep me updated with the latest medical research...i mean lol, u seriously just shat on antidepressants and posted an article about fucking psilocybin...tell me, and be totally honest, cuz i can take it...if your mom, sister, or brother had OCD, would you rather her take a drug developed and tested by a pharm company that was prescribed by a doctor, or would you go out and pick shrooms...dumb...dumb...dumb...dumb...*bang head on wall*...dumb...dumb...dumb...dumb

i know you didn't directly say it, but the implication wasn't lost on anyone...there's no way you even believe this shit yourself...what the hell makes you post dumbass shit like this? i don't understand how people get this backwards...

[FireWall]

i guess i could start up with firewall again, though the last time i tried the thread was vaulted before i could reply to the nitpicking...

Conveniently, I am sure. In any case, I did not have any serious grievances with what you were arguing. There were a few problems here and there, but they were not serious. It seems like you have a propensity to argue even when an argument does not exist.

combination therapy, though proven to be the most efficacious means of combating depression

"Proven"? It is easy to tell that you are not a researcher.

isn't a real alternative for the vast majority of people...compliance is the issue...although psychotherapy is indeed shown to be comparable to the results of empirical SSRI treatment, the fact remains that depressed outpatients simply do not follow up with their sessions (this is certainly debatable, and i base this on experience rather than the current research, if it even exists)...patients are simply much more likely to take a once a day pill and improve than they are to go to and pay for multiple therapy sessions where they're forced to discuss and work on their thought processes...combination therapy, though borne out in the research, is simply not a commonly practiced route for most patients, no matter what the studies say...i, personally, just like most patients, would rather take a pill, especially a pill that is well tolerated with an extremely high success rate…

There is nothing here that I have any reason to disagree with, and I appreciate the insight of a medical professional.

[mag]

For those of you with experience with the following drugs... question of preference, and why:
Xanax/Alprazolam
Klonopin/Clonazepam
Valium/Diazepam

[Zogo]

though i had previously anticipated reigning fire down upon the collective idiocy demonstrated above, i quickly sobered up and begged my inner demon to restrain himself...i had in fact accomplished such until zogo posted words which i can only construe as a direct attack upon all things decent, holy, logical, and remotely informed...

I need to try narrating my thoughts like this as a preface to my posts heh..

look at the fucking statistics, and tell me what you would do as a doctor...to prescribe, or not to prescribe...billy comes in, feeling horrible and hopeless...hrmm...what to do?

I think you took my question the wrong way..I'm not saying these drugs should be banned. my question is why are some drugs with proven medicinal benefits banned..while others do have dangerous side effects and remain legal?

dude what? fucking WHAT?...i can't make this look ridiculous enough...do you have any clue about the real percentages involved in modern pharmacology? FIFTY TO SEVENTY PERCENT PRETTY MUCH CONSTITUTES A MIRACLE DRUG.

even when you throw in the possible side effects of many of them?

now, i don't care what context you could posibly be basing this around...

I didn't figure you would because you've had success with them..while others have not.

and good god, zogo, would you shut up with your conspiracy theories...stick to a subject that you actually have experience with, like pot (actually, i'm not even sure you smoke, but i don't remember)...

no, I don't smoke.

seriously, guy, instead of throwing out crap about big business, tell me what it is you really know about drug companies and their inner workings...yeah dude, i know you have intimate knowledge of the whole FDA/pharm company link, but i'm just a curious bystander that wants to know the real deal...

do I have to be CEO of a corporation or a consultant to take a position on the ridiculous and hilarious relationship that drug companies share with the FDA?

when drugs that KILL people remain legal because of FDA approval while other drugs that don't kill people remain illegal things are pretty clear.

i mean, i deal with pharm reps every day, i write government grants, i'm an advisor for 2 different pharm companies, and i prescribe drugs on a daily basis, but help me yo...quit being selfish with the low down and tell me what's really going on...you threw out a sarcastic claim...back it up...show me...show somebody who is in the know and deals with it every day...

which shows where your bias lies..you wouldn't speak out against what you did or it'd ruin your livelihood on some level.

i mean, you already told me all about pot and i totally changed the way i deal with patients (i.e. they're all high as balls now and doing great!)

I didn't tell you to change your treatment on those patients did I? I just thought it was odd you were complaining about one pot smoker when you've probably dealt with a few thousand drunken idiots.

if your mom, sister, or brother had OCD, would you rather her take a drug developed and tested by a pharm company that was prescribed by a doctor

I have OCD and I'd take neither. but if I wanted to I'd consider all options of course.

i know you didn't directly say it, but the implication wasn't lost on anyone...there's no way you even believe this shit yourself...

which part are you talking about?

[ZeusofIowa]

I suppose I'll weigh in on this subject, be it that I'm fairly educated in psychology, coupled with the fact that I work on an inpatient mental health unit... btw, there is no concrete proof that chemical imbalances cause mental illness.

"Depressed" people don't claim suicide for attention... Those are people that usually have personality d/o's., which can include some depression in there, but not something that be the dominating diagnosis.... More along the lines of someone who is borderline, anti-social etc...

Doctors do get kick back from the drug companies... usually in the form of free samples, and research done by the companies, but it is up to the doctor to decide how to use/interpret these.

Of the individuals I've worked with in an inpatient setting, 90% of them are on medication, and I'd say that *most* need to be. I'd agree with Montang that a large amount of patients are not very pro-active in their own care in the outpatient setting (which is why some patients are called "frequent fliers"). I believe alot of this has to do with not only their illness, but also factors such as transportation, money, family situation.
Zogo, it's unusual that you don't take medication, because most people with OCD that I've seen do. I'm guessing that it isn't very severe?

Also I believe (as one of the DR's that works the unit) says, some patients are TFF. Too fucked to fix, where no amount of medication and therapy will make them "normal" or OK.

Shitty thing that I've seen is the side effects of medication, in which doctors to make a "SSRI cocktail" to balance out the side effects from drugs.. Almost seems laughable at a point, but from what I've seen finding the right combination of drugs at the right doses usually work well. The "double edge sword" is whether a patient would rather be relieved from the illness or the side effects.

dys, I think people get that wrong perception from the media; that being, "everyone is on drugs, and everybody has some form of mental illness". Increased awarness, plus the advertisement of drugs (which I disagree with) lend more parents to send their kids off to get diagnosed. Personally, I think medication should be used more as a last resort rather than a giveaway which does happen.

hrm, my post jumps around, but I'm to lazy to fix.

[Zogo]

Zogo, it's unusual that you don't take medication, because most people with OCD that I've seen do. I'm guessing that it isn't very severe?

it fluctuates. I'm not as bad as the typical case you'd see in a documentary or TV special.

I've never really wanted to take anything because I felt like I'd be changing who I was. I imagine if I had it was at the worst I've experienced for a few weeks I might cave in.