New TF2 Valve Interview

[Direhit]

http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200703/N07.0327.1745.51023.htm

No concs eh?

http://www.gameinformer.com/NR/rdonlyres/E1FA2B62-FC1A-4B31-B28B-15459DD7BA7B/12004/screen5.jpg

http://www.gameinformer.com/NR/rdonlyres/E1FA2B62-FC1A-4B31-B28B-15459DD7BA7B/12006/screem2.jpg

http://www.gameinformer.com/NR/rdonlyres/E1FA2B62-FC1A-4B31-B28B-15459DD7BA7B/12007/01heavy_02_modelpaintred.jpg

http://www.gameinformer.com/NR/rdonlyres/E1FA2B62-FC1A-4B31-B28B-15459DD7BA7B/12008/screen4.jpg

Edit: More stuff... http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200703/N07.0328.1722.34101.htm?Page=1

[|RES|arod]

This is probably the best interview to date. This game should be a bit different, which is what I really want to see in TF2.

edit: sad to see concs gone
edit2: double jumping as scout seems kind of fun
edit3: I can't fucking wait.

[Redneck]

rofl losing concs. They are nerfing the fuck out of this game for the console players, which seems to indicate competition between PC and consoles.

[GhOsT]

So, did you read any of the interview or did you just see "no concs" and immediatly have a knee jerk reaction?

[Redneck]

Knee-jerk, then read, and still think this game is changing TF too much. I thought the way concs were utilized made it so much different than in ETF or the like (i.e. concs fucked up your movement too much to use them).

[MeestarK]

Well its going to be a very different game, and its definitely going to be successful, regardless of how the TFC community feels about it. I look forward to trying it out, and I'll give it a fair chance, the same way I gave TFC a fair chance.

[Badswell]

its going to interesting to say the least. it sounds like the gameplay has changed to mostly ADL with the control points they were talking about.

[~A~]

Clans dont use scout? What?

[Telos]

yeah, I don't think these guys actually follow clan play at all.

Also completely removing nades seems stupid to me. Reducing damage and radius is the better way to go.

[Asimo]

Clans dont use scout? What?
That is how I reacted... lol. Fucking creators of the game don't even know what people can do in the game.

[red baron]

With TF2 I think we’ve been much better about making sure everyone has those weaknesses.

So they're nerfing everything? WTF? Good job valve.. great decisions there...

[Stayne]

That is how I reacted... lol. Fucking creators of the game don't even know what people can do in the game.

Just lets you know how out of the loop Valve is when it comes to TF.

I am surprisingly agitated about the changes they are making. I will, obviously, check it out and see what they've done. Its going to be interesting. I am in the process of lowering my expectations so abysmally that i will most likely be pleasantly surprised by the outcome. :rolleyes:

[Badswell]

[QUOTE=red baron;1498134]With TF2 I think we’ve been much better about making sure everyone has those weaknesses.
QUOTE]

really makes me wonder what they've done to the soldier/pyro difference when I ready something like:

"If you’re a Scout and you’re running at an enemy base and a Soldier comes out then you’re like, “Oh” and you get a little tenacious. Or if it’s a Pyro that comes out, you’re like “Woah!!!” and back up"

[Redneck]

Ya that sounds ridiculous. And just remember who I am...I love pyro and soldier is probably my worst class. I'm not angry at the pyro having some power, I'm disappointed that soldiers are getting nerfed. I am not a fan of majority soldier Ds like what we see today, but a soldier should still be functional.

My guess is that soldier's rockets are going to be too slow to hit a fast moving scout.

[ZeusofIowa]

1. No concs take alot of fun/skill out of the game... Nearly everyone could conc, but getting the ablitity to control your concs to the point that higher level players could takes skill.

2. Multi-Engy.. I dislike the fact that to get a "good" sg, you have to have 3 defenders playing engineer.

3. Like the double jump thing as a scout, but dissapointed that they don't follow clan play much... *cough* Solo,Minoxic who primarily played scout and others.

4. Looking foward to trying it out... Like the idea of no grenades... Maybe everyone wouldn't stack on D in public servers.

[PHISH]

well we already saw the soldiers rocket speeds and they didn't seem that slow. I still don't see how they will make it so a soldier would be weak versus a scout, only thing I can think of is them taking out rocket push so you wouldn't be able to pop them up...still though.

[Zogo]

at this point I feel like going to valve HQ and picketing.

[OhGr]

I don't think the comment they made about "clans dont play scout at all" was meant to be judged so much.

Over the years Honestly how many teams have ran a straight up Medic offense, and on top of it I remember back when Bhop was like WHOA medics was the most desired played class for Offense OVER SCOUTS. I know some of the ppl who have been here since like 03 may not remember or know this but it's true!

just my thoughts from reading through it. Kind of shitty all the stuff they decided to remove after play testing.... Im hoping their excitement for this game is worth all the fucking wait and drama lol

[Fatal|sD]

i like the no nades idea, but no concs is kinda dumb, no other game has concs (at least not how we use them in tfc) so taking them away would be taking away what made the game unique

[SenSai]

I don't see how useful scout is going to be when the medic has super awesome healing abilities to those around him. I'm curious to see how they will try to give the scout an edge so it becomes a more predominant force in matchplay.

[dys]

I'm going to miss TFC.

[colin]

it's not like the current medic sans grenades would ever be used.

i think soldiers are supposed to be weak against scouts because of the double jump or something, even though i can't imagine that helping too much.

my impression over the years has been that no one at valve is remotely good at their own games.

[Solo]

How much power is a medic going to have on offense without grenades?

While I recognize the D won't have grenades either how do you people feel about killing a sentry gun without them?

Scouts will own soldiers now? Well without grenades for the medics on O the soldiers won't be dead so I damned well hope they can.

Now I'm also all about control point maps but bleh

FF please

[Jarek]

i don't see why you guys are burning this thing down. the maps are going to be played a lot differently, so classes are going to be a lot different. the impression i get is its going to be more like playing dustbowl when it first came out when noone knew how to jump the flag or anything so you had to slowly push up to get to the cap. that was probably the funnest time, go into a 30 man server and whack away for 30 minutes only to get stopped right before the cap at 3.

as far as the scout dodging the soldier thing, i don't see it happening unless the double jump makes it possible to jump in any direction or something so if you get popped up u can go whatever way u wanted?

i'm looking forward to it, its a new game and sounds fun.

[HurricanE]

how will a spy take down an sg now with no nades..../me wonders. but just as dumb as a spy manipulating the sg for their team.

[Randy Travis]

first thing I used to show people about TFC was the ability to conc all over the place and cruise around maps... not being able to conc around is going to make offense boring as shit.

[northern lights]

It bothers me that so many people still compare it to TFC, about how will the game balance out compared to TFC. Hello people we still have TFC to play when we want to play TFC.

The gameplay is going to be quite different, and I am quite sure that they have provided check and balances for every class in the game.

I think this could provide for some really different style TF. All about the kills, not the air straifing and bhop

[Sutterkane]

This is the best thing that could've ever happened to ff.

[beano]

yes sutter ^^ .. and now concmaps are going to be a thing of the past which sucks.. sgs are going to be a pain in the ass to take out especially as spy.. no mirvs for demo :( and i thought i hated ff

[AutoGuns]

I think i will like this TF2 style play more than TFC. I feel this way mainly cause ive always hated grenades cause they fucking ruin the gameplay... but seeing concs go away is sad to see. Maybe this double jump scout thing will be fast enough to make up for lack of concs.

Either way... TF2 will be fun no matter what since there will be tons of new players in every server and fresh gameplay.. not just the same old shit that makes this game so damn boring.

[Bp-2X]

How you are supose to go in the yard in monkey_l without conc vs a hw.

Or to go un top of ramp vs a solly or hw if you dont have conc or nade :\

[beano]

exactly bp, also consider run... that map would suck. also, does anyone know if speeds change or if the different melees give different dmg.. such as a bone saw would kill someone where the hw guy's fists would not. also consider the range of fists to a shovel or bat.

edit: search TF2 Beta Test on youtube and watch the videos.. some other guy is making a TF2 as well? anyone else seen this or am i 2 yrs late on this

[Sutterkane]

Exactly. There are way too many places where concs make the game.

How are you supposed to get the flag on 2mesa3 now? Put hw up top with sg, and put demo and pyro down below. Instant shutout 8v8.

Good luck on sd2 as well. Hw on ramp. longgg walk to the battlements. Just getting the security down could be a chore considering you can't conc yard and pound the defense with waves of players.



It sounds like they're trying to turn it into a dod cs hybrid, which is stupid. tf is its own game and deserves to keep the qualities that have made it a long-lasting mod.

[Direhit]

How you are supose to go in the yard in monkey_l without conc vs a hw.

Or to go un top of ramp vs a solly or hw if you dont have conc or nade :\

You're assuming that TF2 maps will resemble anything like TFC maps. The game itself dictates the maps and how they're designed and played. Lose the notion that TF2 will play anything like TFC, because from what we've seen that is clearly the case.

[dys]

Charlie Brown, Engineer and Project Lead at Valve

ahahaha now it makes sense.

[beano]

You're assuming that TF2 maps will resemble anything like TFC maps. The game itself dictates the maps and how they're designed and played. Lose the notion that TF2 will play anything like TFC, because from what we've seen that is clearly the case.

well dire they are making 2fort remake and stick an hw top spi/top ele no way of getting through imo

[Direhit]

well dire they are making 2fort remake and stick an hw top spi/top ele no way of getting through imo

You're still assuming that the remake is identical to 2fort in TFC. Valve has remade maps in source mods that differ from their HL1 counter-parts, and those were certainly more of a direct port then TFC is to TF2. My guess it will be similar though (at least from what we've seen in the trailers), just the dimensions will differ.

[beano]

but how much different do you think it CAN be.. it looked extremely similar as in basement/yard scenes, im sure the spiral and ele entrances are going to be tight.. but do you see where im coming from?

[Direhit]

but how much different do you think it CAN be.. it looked extremely similar as in basement/yard scenes, im sure the spiral and ele entrances are going to be tight.. but do you see where im coming from?
Yes I do, but you're still judging it on how TFC would play if there were no concs and nades. TF2 is meant to be different in oh so many aspects to TFC, judging one game on the other isn't going to do anything but add superfluous and inaccurate speculation to a game we haven't even played yet. Have some faith, Valve hasn't waited this long to make a completely horrible mod and hell, if you still want to play TFC on the Source engine at the end of the day, then you still have FF to look forward to.

[beano]

im not necessarily trying to judge the game, im merely thinking of how its going to be.. nevertheless i am going to buy it and try it, may possibly think different about it, BUT there should be no small maps or small entrances to flags if theres no nades

edit: but you have to admit... great maps such as monkey, 2mesa, trench will not be able to make appearances if what im thinking the gameplay is going to be like without nades

[Direhit]

edit: but you have to admit... great maps such as monkey, 2mesa, trench will not be able to make appearances if what im thinking the gameplay is going to be like without nades

Yeah, they are great maps, great TFC maps. I personally can't wait until we see some great TF2 maps.

[ian.de]

rofl this game is going to be horrible, have fun stepping down 30 levels in terms of game depth.

[The_Carnage]

i think i might just use the tf2 models sprites and ect.. to play FF

[northern lights]

rofl this game is going to be horrible, have fun stepping down 30 levels in terms of game depth.

To me this is what TFC has become with clan play

Offense is just about conc'ing with 2 classes, and throwing grenades at people (sometimes more in depth but this is the case on the majority of maps)
Defense is slightly more diverse in TFC but still limited to the use of 3 classes the majority of the time and sometimes 4.

We have taken the most effective methods of movement/killing and left everything else behind. TF has always been about every class having a perfect enemy who is their worst fear. Just imagine how much team work will be implemented in TF2 when nearly all 9 classes must be utilized in order to defend the base the best. The fighting action should be nothing short of kick ass. We will see more Soldier , Demoman, and Spy used on offense on a regular basis.

They know TF needs to be a fast paced game, and I think it will still be we will just have to reinvent the wheel and find out how to exploit the game as much as possible.

I eagerly await TF2.

[Milosenpotion]

You're assuming that TF2 maps will resemble anything like TFC maps. The game itself dictates the maps and how they're designed and played. Lose the notion that TF2 will play anything like TFC, because from what we've seen that is clearly the case.

holy shit somebody who actually gets it

[[=PR=]Renegade]

could be cool even tho the gameplay wont be much like tfc. alot of ppl will be dissapointed when they go to play it expecting a tfC2. but the double jump for scouts sounds kinda cool.

[5p`]

the best defense for 2fort in TF2? Just have someone stand on the bridge and knock people into the water.... no concs to get out. so, assuming the map is the same, they have a choke point at the water spiral. lol.

[trance^E]

You're assuming that TF2 maps will resemble anything like TFC maps. The game itself dictates the maps and how they're designed and played. Lose the notion that TF2 will play anything like TFC, because from what we've seen that is clearly the case.


Thank you dire. You guys are acting like they are going to drop all these TF2 classes in a tfc environment. Someone was bitching about not being able to get passed a hw as a scout on monkey... just stop and think for two seconds... monkey is a custom map that was taylored to the TFC environment. Nobody is going to make a map like monkey_l if the hw can own a scout like that, youll be seeing a different style of custom maps..

Also, change is good. if it was too similar to TFC, people would get bored quickly just like that already did with TFC, so all the people who come back will not last long.. plus, if the game is totally different, everyone starts off on the same page and has to learn from scratch. Dont you wish you had a chance to rise to the top of a game? Why start playing TF2 religiously knowing theres elitists from TFC that will rip you a new one? Theres more room for new people to get to the top now.

[Stayne]

Is it just me, or are these guys verbally retarded?

"The conc itself invalidated the Scout itself. It just said, 'don’t play me, this class is better.' When we removed those the lines between classes became stronger and more significant."

"The Scout had to be about locomotion. It’s not so much about aiming, it’s about being able to keep an enemy in your crosshair."

huh? No one with a college degree should speak this poorly.

"It confuses and infuriates us!" - Lrrr
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/8/8b/150px-Lrrr.jpg

[trance^E]

also with the amount of people that are going to play.. STA is going to have a LOT of work to do

[beano]

but trance.. custom tfc maps have made this game better and i would like to see those maps made again, maybe with little changes but still.. FF is making monkey and others because they know those are the maps people want.. do people even have access to SDK ( which i think is the steam map maker? ).. were gonna sti there and play the same lame ass maps over and over.. someone should get a move on remaking what made tfc

[Pro]

i'll look at the bright side. no nades = no spam

[Killian]

Ok, some of u fail to understand that tf2 isn't supposed to be nearly a direct port as ff is going to be (which is why tf2 will be better). Tf2 is supposed to be similar to TFC, but by no means are they supposed to be the game that we (the clanning community) are used too. Sutterkane, you brought up all these scenarios about certain maps and how offense is going to be so much harder. The maps you named are not being made by valve, so people should try making new maps instead of bringing back the old ones. All of the new stuff that valve is doing is what WILL attract thousands of players to this game. It will be a big change from what we are used to, but guess what, unless you are an impatient pussy who can't play a new game for more than 5 min because its not exactly the same as what you'd wish, you are going to get used to it.

New styles of playing will come about, new types of tricks, new strats. It appears thats what valve wanted, a new vibe to the game. FF is doing almost the exact opposite, which is why it wont be as successful as TF2 will be. It's funny seeing you guys bad mouth valve when it was them who brought us the game we love as well as some of the most popular video games ever created. For those saying they don't know what they're doing, you couldn't be more wrong. They know exactly what they're doing, but you guys just can't seem to accept it. I'm fairly new to TFC (in standards of others who have been playing 7+ years, ive been playing about 3) so it maybe a bit easier for me to break away from the game unlike some other people, but thats naturally understandable. However, from the drastic changes that are being made for tf2 as compared to tfc, it seems almost unfair to judge it when it by no means is intended to be the same game.

[5p`]

wouldn't it be ironic if pyro became the most used class in TF2?

[Sutterkane]

Killian I was completely on board with the idea that there would be no primary grenades.

Taking out something like concing, which is something that attracts a lot of people to the game and holds their interest or at least has in the past is a mistake. I don't know of anyone that's never played a concmap, even just to try it out.

One of the first things that really turned me on to tfc was the fact that you can fly to certain places on the map. It's been a staple of every single tf mod, and some of them have failed because concing wasn't done properly. Taking it out altogether and calling the mod a tf mod is an abomination.

[Mario]

Man this article just makes me sick. This game is going to be so bad. The thing is so many people will play this too. It will be alright but not in comparison to TFC. They could have gotten feedback from the current players or old players asking on what kept them around for 10 years.

The developers sound retarded as hell. If only the FF devs were as skilled and had the resources (no offense guys).
GG tfc and ff, youre gonna get owned by a bad game :(

sorry for my rambling

[beano]

Killian, i had my mind set that this valve team is dif than the pre-steam valve, am i wrong?

[Mario]

UGH I'm frustrated thinking about the interview my anger set in. Reminds me of Dane Cook where he says that women are brain ninjas. lol

[Fatal|sD]

the end of page 4...

Tomorrow, the exclusive Hands-On with Team Fortress 2!

?

[colin]

the only reason TFC is still alive is because it's unique. if this game had no nades and no concs i would have just played quake 3.

of course i'll try it but i'll probably lose interest in it within 2 weeks like just about every other fps i've ever played.

[Killian]

Killian, i had my mind set that this valve team is dif than the pre-steam valve, am i wrong?

I don't know, you may be right. But chances are they have just as much if not a a lot more money and just as much skill as the pre-steam valve.

[linkfish]

To anyone saying taking out concs isn't a bad idea, you are probably an engineer, and a shitty one at that. Anyone who's played medic or soldier knows all the fun is about concs. Take away concs, then you're taking away all the badass airshots we've seen in avi's over the years, not to mention taking away the only thing that made offense tolerable. Yes I do care about avi's, for me that was a huge part of the game. Fuck teamwork, i want to pop a nigga in the mouth with a rocket when he's 50 feet in the air.

[Redneck]

To me this is what TFC has become with clan play

Offense is just about conc'ing with 2 classes, and throwing grenades at people (sometimes more in depth but this is the case on the majority of maps)
Defense is slightly more diverse in TFC but still limited to the use of 3 classes the majority of the time and sometimes 4.

We have taken the most effective methods of movement/killing and left everything else behind.

Ya but consider the depth of skills that are the most effective for moving and killing. Those are the reasons we still play TFC now. I haven't, and most people haven't perfected every nuance of the game and none of us probably ever will due to the nearly infinite possibilities of play in terms of skills and intelligence used in a highly competitive environment.

I don't see that in TF2. Right from the way they designed the look, it seems clear to me that Valve wanted this game to cater to more "fun" or "non-competitive and super wacky!" gameplay.

[Fivestar]

Don't worry guys, they still got rocket jumps. All will be good. In addition, I think Direhit nailed everything.

I don't understand. A good number of you guys maybe getting bored with TFC and want something new. Valve is doing that with TF2 (which they should be doing), and you guys are criticizing it. That way of thinking is honestly what has been wrong with the community now and why in fact, it's not a large community. What a lot of you guys want is still in TFC or FF. You don't want all 3 games being almost identical. It's good that one will be totally different.

[Bastian]

if i wanted to play a classbased game with teamplay without offhandgrenades , i'd play enemy territory.
for me the main attraction in tfc has been weapon propulsion, how players could be stopped or accelerated by placing a grenade relative to them and likewise the ability to jump from one end of the map to the other as if i were a kind of superhero.
i will certainly miss that, also i predict that the game will become much harder for the offense without grenades.
if they change the maps to account for the lack of concs the game will lose another feature i liked: the 3d maps, then the maps will be not much more than 2d with some tunnels/bridges.

maybe the game will still be fun and if not it should be easy enough to put the grens back in via a mod.

[4est]

Random thoughts:

They are trying to make 5 ... FIVE ... really good maps... "since that's all people really play".

TF2 will be released with 6 maps.

Most maps are going to be command point maps. -- So change the above statement to "TF2 will be released with several versions of warpath".

Demo will still have MIRV.

In one of the interviews they mention something along the lines of having a HW charge a base with a medic to keep healing him. They also mention forcing classes to fight. ** Yeah, sounds like they are trying to turn play into DM. **

The 2 articles make TF2 sound like a design train wreck. I can't wait for part 3.

[[TDA]Phaser]

http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200703/N07.0327.1745.51023.htm


fuck

[Redneck]

Here's one problem I have with the whole "The community is so small and that's why the game should be changed" argument: The game was hugely populated for over 3 years and only slowly declined until just the last 2 years. The only game I can think of offhand that I can say even lasted 3 good years is Halo2 and I don't think it's even 3 years old yet and it's dwindling in population very steadily. TFC is an old as fuck game that could be repackaged and updated (like FF is) and sell huge if Valve chose to go that route.

[Direhit]

More stuff.... http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200703/N07.0328.1722.34101.htm?Page=1

[4est]

I also found it interesting that Engineers in TF2 actually tend to build Ammo dispensers, which was something rarely found in TFC matches...
...
For those who loved the CTF aspect of Team Fortress Classic, we’ve got some bad news. Only one map out of the box will support it, and that’s 2Fort. The other maps will either be Capture Point Matches or Territorial Control maps.


OMG.. are these people totally retarded?

Also, medic sounds like the most boring class ever.

Ever see Tom Hanks in "Big"? Well, I think Valve is creating a damned transforming building. They just don't "get it".

But you can basically sneak up behind any class member (no matter how tough), uncloak, and then stab your enemy, killing him instantly. Yes, that’s right, the Spy has a one hit kill.

A one hit kill???

http://www.parseerror.com/images/moments/inconceivable/inconceivable-1.jpg

[Fivestar]

I understand where you are coming from Redneck. I'm one of those guys who thinks change is good. With all 3 mods, one will satisfy someone. It's better for the overall population of gamers.

[Jarek]

still excited for it, i can't wait to make some cartoony textured maps man

[DISCOANI]

wow i cant wait to play the spy, that will be alot of fun. Since the soldier's seem to be rocket jumping in the video, that may mean there could still be something like explosion jumping if there are no grenades.

Lets say that there are no grenades and you are able to pipe jump. How bad ass would it be if the medic could give a spy 10 second invulnirability and then he steps on the demoman's pipes. The spy could cloak either before he flys or while in mid air, and sneak in.

That would take alot of team work. I think the way the game will work is that you really have to use every class's abilities together to defeat your enemy. Yes it will be dumbed down, but it doesnt mean that it wont be fun.

An instant reply of the death would be awesome! I think if they could somehow show an instant replay of maybe your own last kill (if you kill someone) if not it would show your death. How fun would that be!!!!!!!!!!

[Jackal_]

It amused me that they kept referencing tfc matches when they clearly have no idea whatsoever what occurs in them.

I'm still going to buy and try it, but i would be lying if i said i was optimistic that it will hold my interest.

[beano]

well 4est.. spy had the backstab kill always so i do not see a difference there.. ALTHOUGH.. in this new article dire posted, thanks again, it says "The flamethrower produces a massive amount of damage over a short range, making the Pyro the most lethal close-quarter class there is" ... does that mean its virtually a one hit kill because a spy close range can kill a heavy with one hit.. also he claims "medic is now effective"... also said "spy was boring in TFC" who is this guy..?

edit: i'm going to email the dude who wrote this and ask some questions

[4est]

well 4est.. spy had the backstab kill always so i do not see a difference there..

edit: i'm going to email the dude who wrote this and ask some questions

LOL... sarcasm? Come on, I even included a funny sarcastic pic.

Let us know about the email. Theses guys seem clueless.

[Cobalt]

wow i cant wait to play the spy, that will be alot of fun. Since the soldier's seem to be rocket jumping in the video, that may mean there could still be something like explosion jumping if there are no grenades.

Lets say that there are no grenades and you are able to pipe jump. How bad ass would it be if the medic could give a spy 10 second invulnirability and then he steps on the demoman's pipes. The spy could cloak either before he flys or while in mid air, and sneak in.

That would take alot of team work. I think the way the game will work is that you really have to use every class's abilities together to defeat your enemy. Yes it will be dumbed down, but it doesnt mean that it wont be fun.

An instant reply of the death would be awesome! I think if they could somehow show an instant replay of maybe your own last kill (if you kill someone) if not it would show your death. How fun would that be!!!!!!!!!!
SCO <3U

[4est]

TF2 = class based Team Deathmatch?

[beano]

lol 4est.. making sure.. ya never know about those tM. characters LXZIXZ:O

[ian.de]

still excited for it, i can't wait to make some cartoony textured maps man

read the article, you won't be making any maps sir. They said that map customization is almost out of the question right now with the current state of the SDK. That's also a huge problem.

[Redneck]

Seriously, I would like to see someone from our community who has clanned for a long time to have a discussion with these guys. I'm not saying that the person we choose would necessarily have to be against the changes, I just find it absolutely shocking that they are building a game by trying to modify a game in which they know nothing of the gameplay style.

edit: Reading some of the stuff they say, like the "Medic and HW combo" sounds exactly like the old noob strategy guides I would read when I first picked this game up.

edit2: Walker: I have to say, I played TFC today, it’s like when I play QuakeWorld TFC, I just can’t imagine why anyone would play this game. It’s so terrible. (laughs)

[m1lkman]

its going to be pretty easy when no1 can conc the flag up the elevator in 2fort... hes got the flag where is he goin? my guess is spiral

edited cause im stupid

[MoonGuardian]

Hey Redneck, they ain't making the game for us specifically.

It'll still be a good game for the general public - but perhaps for some of us here, it wont be.

[Badswell]

from that playtest article #3..

I also found it interesting that Engineers in TF2 actually tend to build Ammo dispensers, which was something rarely found in TFC matches.
oh really?


and it looks like the 2fort elevator is gone and replaced with stairs
"So while there won’t be grates on aqueducts to blow up for the Demoman, or an elevator shaft in 2fort, you’ll see trains in Well, or a stairway where an elevator shaft used to be."

[Mario]

I'm still going to buy and try it, but i would be lying if i said i was optimistic that it will hold my interest.

Does anything else matter to them for changing TFC, no. Because all of us will buy it. lol

And "So while there won’t be grates on aqueducts to blow up for the Demoman, or an elevator shaft in 2fort, you’ll see trains in Well, or a stairway where an elevator shaft used to be." My most hated thing in all games ever. Stairs. My god

[Reconz]

sigh -_-

[Hellz-Angel01]

Hey Redneck, they ain't making the game for us specifically.

It'll still be a good game for the general public - but perhaps for some of us here, it wont be.

Well they should have a vested interest in our opinions seeing as how we've kept this game alive as long as just about any online FPS. Seriously someone from the cats should try to do an interview.

also WTF...
"The difference between playing a Pyro and playing a soldier which is sort of the “these classes aren’t that different” in TFC. I think they’re more unique now."

Is he joking? The pyro and solider not that different? Soldier is probably the msot played class and pyro the least. Sure they both have rockets and beyond that its pretty much completely different. Any balancing issues they had could have been fixed somewhere in the 8 YEARS since the games been out...

[slanty]

owned by robin walker

Walker: I have to say, I played TFC today, it’s like when I play QuakeWorld TFC, I just can’t imagine why anyone would play this game. It’s so terrible. (laughs) It’s all relative, right? I think TF2 is just better in pretty much all ways than TFC.

[beano]

I am currently trying to get in contact with the author of the article, not to flame him or anything but to ask a few questions. so i will get back as soon as i hear something.. which will most likely be never

[Colby]

I wonder if scouts can double jump out of water. Since we wont be able to water conc, a map like well would be a pain to get to the top...

[derno]

well FF is starting to look a lot better right now

[Hellz-Angel01]

owned by robin walker

Walker: I have to say, I played TFC today, it’s like when I play QuakeWorld TFC, I just can’t imagine why anyone would play this game. It’s so terrible. (laughs) It’s all relative, right? I think TF2 is just better in pretty much all ways than TFC.

Is this from somewhere or just your take on walker?

[Stayne]

that's a direct quote ^

[bad]

yes sutter ^^ .. and now concmaps are going to be a thing of the past which sucks.. sgs are going to be a pain in the ass to take out especially as spy.. no mirvs for demo :( and i thought i hated ff

i think theyre leaving in 'class' specific nades/gren2 but removing regular nades (green ones)

[bad]

i think i might just use the tf2 models sprites and ect.. to play FF

^^ word.

[ian.de]

owned by robin walker

Walker: I have to say, I played TFC today, it’s like when I play QuakeWorld TFC, I just can’t imagine why anyone would play this game. It’s so terrible. (laughs) It’s all relative, right? I think TF2 is just better in pretty much all ways than TFC.


This is the single greatest gaming atrocity ever committed. The creator of the most perfect online FPS ever created thinks the game is terrible.. wow, TF2 just lost all credibility in my book.

[Rampaging Squirrel]

Valve will be lucky if this game holds people's interest for more than a month before they go back to counterstrike.

The whole "command point" style without having a way to effectively move a flag or a body for that matter vertically takes huge amounts of unpredictability and replayability away from the maps that are probably going to already be boring after you deathmatch your way back and forth a few times between the same middle cap point.

Really? If the FF team plays their marketing cards right they might be able to attract the people who get bored of this mod over to FF to give that a spin.

[Gonzalez]

so basically

more teamwork = plus
flatter skill curve = minus

game sounds fun to me, though not very challenging per say, except teamwork wise maybe. im glad it will be different and im glad there will also be ff and i cant wait to try both out.

[4est]

I wonder if scouts can double jump out of water. Since we wont be able to water conc, a map like well would be a pain to get to the top...

The don't want players to be able to avoid battle. That's part of the reason for removing the conc. The want to force them to fight. Sounds like team deathmatch to me.

[Bp-2X]

yeah mostly,
There was HL: DM then HLS: DM
Welcome TF2: DM

[C-Aim]

“Who killed me? Why did I die?” We want to say, you died, here’s the person who killed you. Here’s what he killed you with. This will make clan-play interesting. Now when you get killed by an SG you don't have to check around for it yourself, the game tells you where it is. Also,this will very much suck for snipers. You kill somebody and the game freaking ousts your position? LAME. The only thing I never liked about TFC is the death cam, it should just go black and force you to respawn, not give you detailed intelligence about the enemy's defense if you didn't see it when you were alive.

The difference between playing a Pyro and playing a soldier which is sort of the “these classes aren’t that different” in TFC.Seriously? Do these jokers even play TFC?

It helps that whole teamwork thing too because if as a Soldier and there’s a Scout coming towards you, you’re in trouble.What does this even mean? If a scout can easily dispose of a soldier, then this game is going to suck it hard. If it means that the scout can get past easy, I fail to see how that means that you are "in trouble"

So if you’re a defender, Engineers don’t build sentry guns in the middle of Well or three quarters into Well, they build them at the end because people will walk around your sentry gun and steal the flag.They don't build it in the middle because it can get raped from any distance like that. This just sounds stupid.


And also no concs = no fun.


I'm still going to try the game (since I am def getting EP2, might as well). But honestly this interview makes me very uneasy about how good TF2 is actually going to be (or how bad for that matter).

[beano]

well 4est with ur comment on secondary grens.. does that mean there are still nail grens, EMPs, and such.. i know they said MIRVs are going to be present.. but if other classes get secondary nades.. what does a scout/med/spy get? also if they want everyclass to not be able to avoid DM.. then why have a scout or even give it the double jump feature.. hipocritical

[odin]

NO CONCS AHHHHHHHHHHH

[5p`]

so.... following their "you can't avoid combat" strategy... i'm assuming that there is no bhop....?

[Hard`]

owned by robin walker

Walker: I have to say, I played TFC today, it’s like when I play QuakeWorld TFC, I just can’t imagine why anyone would play this game. It’s so terrible. (laughs) It’s all relative, right? I think TF2 is just better in pretty much all ways than TFC.

Made me sick to my stomach i wanna hurt the guy.

[Stayne]

“Who killed me? Why did I die?” We want to say, you died, here’s the person who killed you. Here’s what he killed you with.

This will make clan-play interesting. Now when you get killed by an SG you don't have to check around for it yourself, the game tells you where it is. Also,this will very much suck for snipers. You kill somebody and the game freaking ousts your position? LAME. The only thing I never liked about TFC is the death cam, it should just go black and force you to respawn, not give you detailed intelligence about the enemy's defense if you didn't see it when you were alive.

Last time I checked, if i wanted to know who killed me in TFC all I had to do was look in the upper right-hand corner of my screen. The game gives a running log of who killed who with what.... Seems like a good way to tell someone how they died without giving away that person's location. But, I guess that is too 1999.

[dys]

I think it's time for us, the TFC community to do the two things that we do best:

1. Be dickheads
2. Illustrate what we've evolved this game into. (avi's)

Why don't we quote the ridiculous things that some of these developers have said about TFC, the ones who claim to know how TFC is being played and retort with a submitted HLTV of a top level match being played and attach a few avi's of the various things people do, both on offense and defense. And let's completely contradict the false claims these guys are saying in their interview about our TFC. Because in reality, it isn't theirs at all anymore and they haven't given a shit about us for years.

I read some of the shit these guys are saying in the article and I can't help but wonder if they're playing on a pub server filled with bots. The original creators of TFC need to see what people are doing in the servers nowadays. They would shit themselves dry.

Now I'm not saying we do this because maybe we'll get them to reconsider how to make TF2 - I'm not instigating that at all because for one it just won't happen and secondly, sure something new may be needed. But seeing the things these guys are saying, even downtalking the current game is somewhat insulting.

Has a gaming community ever spoken up before, or as a whole, had their voices published in a somewhat direct response to a gaming developer's ignorance? Isn't there some place to post replies, or an email to the author of the interview? By freak chance, just maybe the magazine would find it interesting or worthy of acknowledging?

Should we sit here while these people mock the game many of us have played for over 7 years? Is it worth it, does it matter? Probably not, but that's where our number 1 attribute factors in - we could do it just to be dicks. And I think we all have to admit, after all these years, it would be pretty fucking sweet to get our little community all on the same team to make another group feel like complete asswipes. It is what we do.

[4est]

I think it's time for us, the TFC community to do the two things that we do best:

1. Be dickheads
2. Illustrate what we've evolved this game into. (avi's)
.

LOL at the dickheads comment.

I agree. I was thinking that if these guys were forced to watch the POTWs and other good AVI's, the MIGHT get a tiny clue that they are ignorant about the game.

However, I think the only way they'd do it would be if they were strapped into chairs with their eyelids held open ala... A Clockwork Orange.

I'm stunned by how much they have so wrong about the game and the way it is played. If they want to make a new team game that is fine. However, they should in no way compare their present abomination to TFC or TF.

These forums and the FF forums should me mandatory reading for anyone involved in making TF2.

[decap]

GI: You’ve done a lot of changes with the classes in TF2. How are these changes affecting the rock-paper-scissors mentality of the class based game?

Walker: I think we got a lot better at that. With TFC we had the problem of not really knowing how to pick correct 4v4 teams -- that is, until [TDA]Wheaties came along and provided us with this great problem solver. Boy, I can't tell you how much it's meant to us.

[5p`]

lol. nice decap

[WoBMatt]

People are suprised that Valve doesn't even know about their own game?

How long ago was it that 404 showed the Valve guys how to fast-fire as a Heavy? Along with a ton of other things like bunny-hop, skipping, sharking, ramp slides, caltrop jumps (lol at that video). Plus a million other things I'm sure people have figured out in the last few years I've not really played much.

I'd imagine if any remotly serious TFC player now showed up and played the game they are designing now they would find a ton of problems or things the developers never imagined.

[Jarek]

lol i would actually buy a gaming magazine if they published dys's idea, like "This is some reader feedback we got after posting our TF2 interview" or something and had avis on their sight. it wouldn't change TF2 but i agree it is insulting that he is shitting on TFC because he doesn't understand it's evolution.

if you think about it its like god (walker) is like hey i'm going to change these gorillas into this cool new species that we will call Humans Part 2. har har i don't care how they evolved before we are going to give them this third arm and.. oh hey... they don't need those testicles and those women don't need boobs!

[dys]

Probably just me blowing a fantasy out my ass, but it seems that the magazine would welcome the controversy/hype because it would get more publicity. If done right I think they would be receptive to the idea. And in an indirect way, also promote FF better then ever.

[beano]

dys, i am in 100% agreement with you on this.. its rediculous.

edit: I got a response from the author of that article.. and this is what i wrote; his reply following

"Hello,

I am an avid player of Team Fortress Classic for 7+ years now and feel I
know a lot about the game. I have read your article concerning TF2 and
was wondering if you could answer some questions. The questions do not
pertain to TF2 itself, becuase I am sure that no more information about
the beta can be released. I have been in league play for many years now
and am curious how and what do you know about current TFC league play?
If it is possible to reply to these questions it would be a great help.
On behalf of myself and the TFC community i belong to, I felt a little
confused if you will at the facts given in the article and any feedback
would be of a great help."

This is his response.

"Nothing was revealed about league play. Sorry :("

i hope this is some kind of joke in ignoring my question..

edit 2: i have wrote back another response, it is lengthy so im sure ill get a bunch of tl;dr's but either way, it mentions my concerns and others of this community.. and i have a feeling he wont reply unless its something along the lines of "LOL :("


"Well sir, I have reread your article "Team Fortress 2 Hands-On Preview" and have found more than one instance where you claim to have some predisposed knowledge of TFC and how it is played. Here you quoted "I also found it interesting that Engineers in TF2 actually tend to build Ammo dispensers, which was something rarely found in TFC matches." But if one was to actually inquire a veteran TFC player/league player you would know that a dispensor is rarely not seen in a match. You also wrote about the class of Medic and its role in TFC today, "First off, the Medic now truly matters. Instead of being a different class to conc jump all over the place, the Medic is definitely everyone’s best friend." Again, any HLTV demo (Half-Life Television) would show you that almost any match, usually 8v8/9v9 runs 4 medics on offense. Medic is the most utilized offense in the game in matches. Also, the article said that a Pyro is like a Soldier. Pyro is the least used class in the game with virtually no purpose on Offense or Defense. I am not writing you these e-mails to challenge your credibility but merely wondering where this information is coming from. There is still a vast TFC community that is involved in league play in such leagues as STA (www.sta-league.org) and TFL (www.tfleague.com). Also, there is a main forum used by most TFC players at www.thecatacombs.net. Most of the community is distrought by this article with the facts given and the comments said by Valve creators, who in our minds, have no idea what TFC has evolved into. I encourage you to watch a few AVIs created by the top TFC players. If you have interest, please respond back and see what this community has to offer and why we are so confused by this article."

[4est]

Probably just me blowing a fantasy out my ass, but it seems that the magazine would welcome the controversy/hype because it would get more publicity. If done right I think they would be receptive to the idea. And in an indirect way, also promote FF better then ever.


Does the magazine have a forum?

good sensible stuff

Nice work sir!

[[GoW]HK]

You're assuming that TF2 maps will resemble anything like TFC maps. The game itself dictates the maps and how they're designed and played. Lose the notion that TF2 will play anything like TFC, because from what we've seen that is clearly the case.

exactly. you guys are dense.

[C-Aim]

It is exactly that reason that is troubling most of us.


Also, Beano, why would you direct those questions at the reporter who didn't say any of that stuff...

[beano]

he did say those things? he wrote them in his article.. those are not the responses from Valve members. dont know if you read it or anything..

[C-Aim]

Maybe we are looking at different things? the only thing I saw was the interview with those 2 idiots from Valve from this link: http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200703/N07.0327.1745.51023.htm (the one at the thread start)


Edit: 3 idiots from valve

[beano]

C-Aim, you are looking at the wrong one.. that was the first revealed article and then Direhit found this one: http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Sto...101.htm?Page=1

which is a first hand recollection of TFC and now TF2

edit: apparently my link doesnt workkkkkkk and its because i copied the link from dire like an idiot.. so if u havnt seen it, look on page 2 near the bottom of this thread

[C-Aim]

NM I just found it under the images. I hadn't read that.

[Redneck]

I get more and more angry every time I read this shit.

edit: We should swarm the steam forums.

[MightyMouse]

I like the idea of moving towards control point style of gameplay. CTF by itself of how we feel it seems preety weak in teamwork as a whole. I still remember playing stuff like scrummage, and then being surprised that the round is over cause it goes by so quick, but thats just me.

I think this could be real good, just have to see.

With the Scout I usually can nab a few flags before anyone knows what’s going on or gets setup, and then I hop quickly on defense to keep the lead.
true idea of CTF^ , though incredibly, majorly, gay

[Mario]

Basically guys dont go on your own making these letters. I say a community letter with links to avis. Explain the community etc. I think it could be done, jsut a little teamwork :D. Not that it will change anything but just to be dickheads. I mean obviously we are dickheads the most popular forum is the Cesspool lol.

If TF2 sucks and fails we let the cesspool all stars rape them

[|RES|arod]

Why would Valve cater to us, who would be so far above the rest of the competition? You don't think theyve seen someone concjump before? The people playing TFC now are meaningless to the big picture, which involves hundreds of thousands of players.

[Cobalt]

Why would Valve cater to us, who would be so far above the rest of the competition? You don't think theyve seen someone concjump before? The people playing TFC now are meaningless to the big picture, which involves hundreds of thousands of players.
qft

[QuAnTuM-woOdY]

shits fucked yo

[Deca-_x]

I agree that we're meaningless to the big picture. However, it is very meaningful not to let Valve publish things about TFC that are blatantly false.

It's very easy for someone who hasn't played TFC to gloss over the interviews and accept the information as the truth. This is like adding insult to injury - not only did Valve abandon TFC, but then it came back to demonstrate its complete ignorance of how it's even played.

Of course we're all big boys now, i'm sure we can get over Valve's douchbaggery... although that's if we assume that their comments won't have any bearing in future situations.

Just consider this though, FF comes out and grabs the attention of a few gamers, only to quickly lose it because the gamers notice that it's a more direct port of TFC - a game which Valve pretty much said was gay

[senor-turkey-lurkey]

TF2
http://mmxz.zophar.net/megamanxz/megaman/mm2_bubbleman.gif vs http://mmxz.zophar.net/megamanxz/megaman/mm2_heatman.gif

After reading the articles a lot of the points they raised made sense. Why play scout when you can play medic? You have to be REALLY good at scout to get the advantage. It's all about everyone having a purpose, so scout now becomes THE offensive class. The lack of concs will be very lame though. Totally changed medic will be lame as well, virtually eliminates the class from having any real offensive role and is now completely support... meh

[Trex]

it'll probably never come out anyway.

[GhOsT]

Wow, some big talkers in here. VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!!!1!!!!111!!11

I seem to remember hardcore QWTF players denouncing TFC due to the changes made for it. It wasn't exactly the same so of course it sucked. Course that didn't stop TFC from becoming popular and you guys becoming god's gift to TFC.

[Deca-_x]

I seem to remember hardcore QWTF players denouncing TFC due to the changes made for it. It wasn't exactly the same so of course it sucked. Course that didn't stop TFC from becoming popular and you guys becoming god's gift to TFC.

FF's case is a little different though, because it won't be shipped by Valve like TFC was, so it won't have that initial pull.

I don't really care either way though, i just felt like saying something

[Cobalt]

Wow, some big talkers in here. VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!!!1!!!!111!!11

I seem to remember hardcore QWTF players denouncing TFC due to the changes made for it. It wasn't exactly the same so of course it sucked. Course that didn't stop TFC from becoming popular and you guys becoming god's gift to TFC.
Shh, ghost, logic not allowed here.

[16Valve]

Shh, ghost, logic not allowed here.

Right.

You either move on and adapt or get left in the dust with nothing but memories.

Alot of the guys I played with in QWTF played TFC for a while but as soon as Q3F came along, they up and went to it and were mainly the ones putting that league together. It was most like the game they remembered.

Look where it is now. :/

[Dospac]

From the sounds of it, if scout has a double jump, then air control is probably not completely gone. The last flicker of hope for competitive play, it looks like.

The reasoning behind the outcry here boils down to taking skill out of the game without replacing it. Right now it seems clear that the game will be much toned down from TFC. Slower, many fewer abilities, more simple weapons/grenades, etc. They want to create a fun, silly, goofy off the wall game, different than the realistic shooters, with not a lot more to offer beyond public play. The maps are designed to shuffle the teams towards common goals and strip out the complex interactions in place of more basic ones(for example the new medic abilities and play mechanics that must go along with him having a weapon like that. Yes, the 'follow the hw into the base healing him strat' just got moved to center stage for what used to be one of the most versatile and interesting classes).

Anyway, it seems doubtful that Valve is designing a game they intend to have last longer than a couple of years. TFC being popular for so long wasn't making them any money and the apparently final TF2 concept is only ~18 months old at this point.

It certainly will be interesting to play, and likely will be fun. But lets not kid ourselves. From the looks of this more in depth information out now, Valve has completely ignored the strength and depth of TFC's competitive play and is offering a game that, while fun for a few laughs and possibly some new team dynamics, probably doesn't deserve the sequel label from the clan scene's perspective.

Consider the interest Valve has shown towards TFC and the active community over the years. Consider the input they had from us in developing TF2(clearly none). I'm seeing very few reasons to get excited about competitive TF2 at this point. The TF2 apologists are crackin me up. No concs, well.. the maps will be different so it will be ok! Yeah, they'll be much less dynamic/a lot more flat and a lot more like every other forgettable FPS out there.. :)

Yes, I realize there is a lot more to the game we still do not know. I'm simply making an observation that there is a clear trend visible now as more and more information about TF2 comes to the surface, and noting that this trend does not bode well for competitive play or the longevity of the game itself. Another way of saying it is, if there were amazing new depth enhancing features in TF2, and much thought(9 years remember?) had gone into designing them, Valve would clearly have already been talking about it. Somethin smells fishy..

[Mario]

^yeah!

[puppychow]

this game ain't being made for clanners people..you represent only a small fraction of the playerbase so stop talking like someone who is getting screwed over. you will play it and love it and if not, play FF. I for one want the games to be as different as possible. thats a win/win.

[beano]

ok chief... i personally think your statement regarding this game not being made for clanners is rediculous.. not the name of the game is "Team" Fortress 2 and that is an indicater that you will need a cooperative team to play/win.. and a clan is a team that works together.. put 2 and 2 together puppychow..

[Direhit]

ok chief... i personally think your statement regarding this game not being made for clanners is rediculous.. not the name of the game is "Team" Fortress 2 and that is an indicater that you will need a cooperative team to play/win.. and a clan is a team that works together.. put 2 and 2 together puppychow..

There are many games out there that require teamwork, some more then others, TF is definitely the latter. Nonetheless, teamwork doesn't imply competitive play in the manner to which is referred to in TFC. I can remember first starting off in TFC when I didn't even know what a clan match was, for me teamwork was going into the enemy base as an O HW with a medic behind me healing the fuck out of me and having an absolute blast doing it. It's those times that I'm looking forward to with TF2, something finally new, something not identical to TFC.

[Direhit]

From the sounds of it, if scout has a double jump, then air control is probably not completely gone. The last flicker of hope for competitive play, it looks like.

The reasoning behind the outcry here boils down to taking skill out of the game without replacing it.

I don't know if I would qualify a very small amount of hardcore TFC'ers complaining that TF2 isn't a revamped and updated version of their precious TFC, as an "outcry". And I'd imagine most of those people are angry because they were naive or egotistical enough to believe that Valve would actually care about a few dozen outspoken TFC'ers when there are hundreds of thousands of potential players out there to focus on.

It certainly will be interesting to play, and likely will be fun. But lets not kid ourselves. From the looks of this more in depth information out now, Valve has completely ignored the strength and depth of TFC's competitive play and is offering a game that, while fun for a few laughs and possibly some new team dynamics, probably doesn't deserve the sequel label from the clan scene's perspective.

Perhaps not, but whose to say they are gearing the game to have anything like TFC's clan play. I think it's pretty clear they don't want that and I for one am glad, I don't want to be playing the same game for another x amount of years. Very few games are designed with competitive play in mind, more often then not competitive clan play evolves from the core game and how the pubbers play it.

Yes, I realize there is a lot more to the game we still do not know. I'm simply making an observation that there is a clear trend visible now as more and more information about TF2 comes to the surface, and noting that this trend does not bode well for competitive play or the longevity of the game itself. Another way of saying it is, if there were amazing new depth enhancing features in TF2, and much thought(9 years remember?) had gone into designing them, Valve would clearly have already been talking about it. Somethin smells fishy..

Clan play certainly helps keep a game going, but at the end of the day it's the pubbing that maintains the vitality of a game. There's no doubt that clan play attributes to the longevity of TFC, but there's no denying that the vitality of TFC has been piss poor for at least 3 years and those left playing are more or less the hardcore players or complete newbs who just have fun. The pubbing scene of TFC has been dead for years and is directly correlative with the decline in overall players of the game, just as many other games. Regardless how TF2 turns out there will be a competitive player base, but several years from now if TF2 hopes to still be around and kicking some ass (much like CS and CSS) it's going to need pubbers and lots of it. As for the 9 years remark, I highly doubt that the current version of TF2 has been in design or concept for even 1/4 of that amount.

[shaggy]

I am very sadden by this news. I enjoyed TFC CTF map game play, which is taking a back seat to A/D & warpath type maps. Now if I can get over the destruction of CTF map gameplay, I do see alot of positive things from this mod.

This is how I understand the certain items will play out on A/D type map(which is what this whole mod is geared towards).
1. No grenades. Not a bad idea on an A/D map. By far the most spammy maps around.
2. No concs, does hurt the game, but perhaps concs would be too powerful after nerfing the heavy classes.
3. Double jump sounds like a nice addition to the scout. I have a feeling what they meant when they said a soldier would fear them is b/c they are moving fast and barely touching the ground, kinda likea bh scout. And I don't know about ya'll but if I'm a solly with no grenades playing against a good bh scout. I do get worried :/ <---yes i suck :)
4. Medics being a helping class. Quite a useful class in an A/D map.
5. Pyro has a purpose. Not sure ya'll read, but there are other links on that website that go into game play. And it says pyro will be the most deadly class up close. Not worth a damn from a certain range, but the deadliest in close quarters.
6. Spy having cloaking for aprox 10 secs. Make this class awesome at taking out the living D classes but suck at taking out SG's. Talk about a switch from tfc.

Anyways I think the changes could make A/D style game play even funner. I just wish they didn't trample on CTF gameplay. It was by far my favorite part of tfc.

[4est]

Well, if you are trying to defend against a jumper who lands on your cap with 10 seconds of invulnerability... you are screwed.

[Bp-2X]

I don'T think you can really play ADL in TF2.

Medic can make a player invulnerable for 10 sec.

So take a medic + invulnerable scout with flag + a demoman = geting all cap point without any trouble.

but still.. maybe adl will chang ein tf2, like only map like scrummage, cz2, tube_something will be played.

[Direhit]

Well, if you are trying to defend against a jumper who lands on your cap with 10 seconds of invulnerability... you are screwed.

Just because you're invulnerable doesn't mean that you won't be effected by explosions. You may not die, but I'm willing to bet the physics of the game would toss you clear of the cap point if you had 6 pipes detted on you.

[WoBMatt]

The only thing I hope they leave in is the adsurd level of customization availible to map creators via the entity system.

Nothing could hold a candles to the varied game types possible with TF's entity system. I don't think many full games even had the complexity of something like Spaz4 in QWTF :) (and no, murderball is nothing even close to Spaz4).

Of course most people only created CTF maps, but there was potential for so very much more than anything.

CS has programed game types: DE or CS maps, that is it. TF entities were flexible enough to allow you to build TF maps that could somewhat emulate these game types when it came out for Quake!

That's impressive and one feature that should remain or even added to other games/mods.

[SilentDark]

GG concs :(

[beano]

well dire in regards to the clan comment.. i feel that its rediculous that you can say its not a clan oriented game, in which a lot of multiplayer games are.. frankly i think clans would only help any game gain publicity in that if the game makes it to CPL it would bring crazy oppurtunities for others to see the game and the competition behind it

[Direhit]

well dire in regards to the clan comment.. i feel that its rediculous that you can say its not a clan oriented game, in which a lot of multiplayer games are.. frankly i think clans would only help any game gain publicity in that if the game makes it to CPL it would bring crazy oppurtunities for others to see the game and the competition behind it

Actually I said "TFC Clan" style, never said it wasn't clan oriented in general, in fact I said that the game would undoubtedly spawn a large competitive community. As for CPL and getting all this attention to the game, you do realize the game would have to be huge in order to really get a massive amount of hype at a tournament event like CPL? And if that's the case, believe me, the game wouldn't need that much more exposure. TF2 as it stands is getting an immense amount of exposure and will stand to do even more once its released. You'll see everything short of a TV commercial.

[shaggy]

Well, if you are trying to defend against a jumper who lands on your cap with 10 seconds of invulnerability... you are screwed.

FRom an article I do not believe there is any invulnerability. It just beefs up the players around em.

"First off, the Medic now truly matters. Instead of being a different class to conc jump all over the place, the Medic is definitely everyone’s best friend. Be a medic, and suddenly everyone wants to hang out near you. The Medigun fires a Ghostbuster style healing ray at your teammates, helping to keep them alive while they’re getting attacked. The ray can go around 10-15 yards, and will bend if your target moves. However, if your teammate is too far out of your line-of-sight the beam will break. If you’re backing up a Pyro or a Heavy, you’re definitely going to have a fun time, and a much higher success rate at accomplishing team goals. But considering you’re the shield for your teammates you’ll quickly become a target -- especially for Snipers.

The Pyro makes close quarters much more interesting. In ranged situations he’s more or less worthless, but as a Pyro getting up close and personal is quite deadly for your adversaries. Even if who you’re attacking has a Medic on healing duties, as a Pyro you can torch the heck out of both of them. Medics go up in smoke quite fast, too, so knocking out someone’s healer and then focusing on the real threat can make for interesting encounters"

Read this article if ya'll missed it. http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200703/N07.0328.1722.34101.htm?Page=1

[Stayne]

I think the 10 sec of invulnerability idea came from a possible mis-translation from that german article. I think maybe it was a confusion of the 10 sec of invisibility (cloak) that the spy has. Not sure about that, just thinking that might be the case since the invulnerability wasn't mentioned in the english 3-part article.

[Redneck]

^ Agreed. That's the first good news I've seen about TF2.

[Mario]

Only plus of TF2 is the medic gun thing. But still 1 thing isn't going to make up for concs. lol

[Jarek]

no i recall reading somewhere about the medic getting some sort of charge from healing people where once its full he can render himself or a teamate invincible for 10 seconds

i think that was posted in the FF forum thread about these articles or something

[Dospac]

Yes, that article states that soldiers were rocketing themselves against walls before the dustbowl gates fell, with medics healing the soldiers to charge their invulnerability thing for the start of the action..

That just.. Well haha.. Yeah... Um...

I hope that you can end that 10 seconds of invincibility by separating the two players physically with explosions.. Still, that really sounds like a bad thing for competitive play heh.

[Stayne]

Yes, that article states that soldiers were rocketing themselves against walls before the dustbowl gates fell, with medics healing the soldiers to charge their invulnerability thing for the start of the action..

That just.. Well haha.. Yeah... Um...

I hope that you can end that 10 seconds of invincibility by separating the two players physically with explosions.. Still, that really sounds like a bad thing for competitive play heh.

Dospac, have you guys had any dialog with Valve over getting a Steam News spot or anything? As different as TF2 is from FF, there really shouldn't be a problem there. They've had news posts on some pretty pathetic looking mods. You guys def deserve one.

[Wheaties[TCK]]

My response to scouts/concs are useless

http://www.ozfortress.com/media/videos/1572?p=388761

enjoy

[SleepyAlan]

Wow i guess there goes my class considering i need 3 other people to build a sg.
But yeah im sure the hw isnt going to be as strong as he is in tfc as well as the maps im sure are gonna have like 15 differnt entrances. Im starting to see dod in this game i bet offense has to go together to cap.It will probaly be fun come on now

[|RES|arod]

Who said you needed 3 people to build an sg?

[Direhit]

Who said you needed 3 people to build an sg?

No one, Alan is just a little slow on the uptake. :D

[SenSai]

As I've said elsewhere, instead of Valve working to bring up classes like sniper, pyro, and spy, they've dumbed down all the other classes to even the playing field. No bhopping, no ridiculous air movement, no concing...all seems pretty stupid. Also, I'm already beginning to wonder about the balance issue of a medic vs. an SG. Looking at the weapons in part 3 of the interview, I doubt a syringe is going to take out an SG in any way. I really think they've nerfed the game, but more important, they've killed the medic.

[GhOsT]

I'd love to see where people are getting the information that bunnyhopping is out of the game because in all the articles I've read I have missed that tidbit. The same goes for no air movement.

[schtoofa]

Dospac, have you guys had any dialog with Valve over getting a Steam News spot or anything? As different as TF2 is from FF, there really shouldn't be a problem there. They've had news posts on some pretty pathetic looking mods. You guys def deserve one.
Stayne: yeah, I've spoken with some of the Valve guys on a few occasions. They're pretty busy folks, but a Steam News spot is something we've tried for. No luck yet, obviously :) That aside, all those that I've spoken with seem like great guys. Very supportive, too.

[ZZUBYTTIHS]

Well its one way to stop anti conc LMAO!! atleast they added a SUPERJUMP!!! lol
Next give all players ESP so, BAM, no wall hacks to worry about, cause everyone has them.
Just another dumb HL DM game imo, Im going FF.
Funny how clueless they are of what can be done in TFC, should flood them with tones of vids asking "can I still do this" lol
Remeber alot of these servers are going to be pub style, and they all have to work together LMAO, I can just see what one newb not wanting to work together can do :P

[Mario]

^ cool sig, but over done

[ZZUBYTTIHS]

I never made it (be nice smaller), but ya I thought it was funny :)
Why is my avatar .gif not working though? :/

[Stayne]

Stayne: yeah, I've spoken with some of the Valve guys on a few occasions. They're pretty busy folks, but a Steam News spot is something we've tried for. No luck yet, obviously :) That aside, all those that I've spoken with seem like great guys. Very supportive, too.

Thanks Schtoofa. That's good to know. Hopefully Valve will give FF some Steam coverage when you release.

[nex|nicholai]

SizeableSSonic from the FF forums emailed Valve and received a response.

http://forums.fortress-forever.com/showpost.php?p=211422&postcount=166

Authenticity not guaranteed.

[4est]

;1499894']My response to scouts/concs are useless

http://www.ozfortress.com/media/videos/1572?p=388761

enjoy

Nice work Wheaties

[jumbok]

it's such weird mixed messaging. why make 4 out of 6 maps updated versions of existing tfc maps, only to then say "it's a totally different game with totally different gameplay."

after reading all this it makes me a little worried about how much they'll be supporting custom configs and scripting, since those are also tools for the hardcore. anybody know if hl2 has decent scripting compared to hl1?

edit: afterthought
======
i had a big argument with my wow-expert friend this week when i told him that i think wow ctf sucks and should have rules more like tfc. his main argument is that wow is so much slower and harder to kill people that you can't even compare the two games. with things like less grenades, healing from a distance, and invulnerability, it seems like tf2 may feel a lot more like a wow bg than tfc.

so far i have never had fun in a wow bg, but maybe that's just due to all the fucking twinks.

[puppychow]

why not wait to bitch until it's out and you see what it's REALLY like? Oh yeah, this is the internet.

But I seriously doubt that all the nuances, details, and gameplay mechanics were either revealed here or won't be altered.

Breathe people.

[Redneck]

It will probaly be fun come on now

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt because you are probably drunk like me. But, come on now, it won't even approach tfc and you know it.

edit: nex|nicholai, I like SizeableSSonic's heart, but someone needs to teach him to write before he tries to speak out for the whole community. I am a good writer, yet in no way claim to be the best here. I think in an effort to put our "best foot" forward we need to get behind one single letter with all the avis and other evidence backing it in order to make a stronger argument. A hundred "OmGZ yOU nERFFEd TfC LOZl" emails won't do shit.

When I was really active in the Halo2 community, Bungie listened to the community and ranked TeamSWAT, but only after the best-written arguments were given. That's my 2 cents.

edit2: Also judging from that email, it seems the pyro is now going to be the equivalent of that faggot that camps in the garage on the classic cs_militia and slaughters everyone because they can't see him. They found a way to change the pyro from the most annoying yet most skill-demanding class to the...uh...most annoying yet most...uh...skilless?...class in the game.

[WoBMatt]

SizeableSSonic from the FF forums emailed Valve and received a response.

http://forums.fortress-forever.com/showpost.php?p=211422&postcount=166

Authenticity not guaranteed.

Meh, amazing (if true) that he got a response to that.

Rather poor way of venting rage.

I agree with the main points brought up but the way it was done leaves a lot to be desired. I'm also willing to wait a bit to see how the game might play in reality compared to the supposed reality that Valve creates.

[GhOsT]

Meh, amazing (if true) that he got a response to that.

Rather poor way of venting rage.

I agree with the main points brought up but the way it was done leaves a lot to be desired. I'm also willing to wait a bit to see how the game might play in reality compared to the supposed reality that Valve creates.
I'm not quite sure what you are expecting Valve to release. It's just 1 interview. They aren't going to tell you every little detail about the game in it. Information is just starting to come out about the game. Give em time.

Like puppychow said. Breathe people.

[WoBMatt]

I'm not expecting anything to be released. I'd rather have a few actual TFC people give it a shot and hear what they say then try to glean useful information from people believing that Medics are useless and Pyro == Soldier.

Unfortunatly that will never happen until the game is out.

Mostly just saying that I'm suprised that SizableSSonic got a response from the tone of his email.

[beano]

well did that say that scout can kill hws and solds?

[Sutterkane]

I'm not expecting anything to be released. I'd rather have a few actual TFC people give it a shot and hear what they say then try to glean useful information from people believing that Medics are useless and Pyro == Soldier.

Unfortunatly that will never happen until the game is out.

Mostly just saying that I'm suprised that SizableSSonic got a response from the tone of his email.

lol, you said glean. everyone at my office makes fun of this one guy for saying glean. he also uses the word "nebulous".

[exr8eD]

i wish that we could convince all the creators of tf2 to spectate just one tfc match of top clans. i don't think any of them actually realize the potential of the game.. and they're straying away from certain aspects of it based on what maybe they've witnessed by joining a newb pub (where everyone complains about stuff because they can't learn to do it themselves)

[MeestarK]

There must have been an identical thread in the QWTF community before the release of TFC.

[Jimyd]

Man sniper is gonna be fun on 2fort bridge, NO CONCS!

I think TF2 team missed that one.

[WoBMatt]

There must have been an identical thread in the QWTF community before the release of TFC.

From what I remember the complaints were more about the clunky netcode and highish system requirements that were needed to run a game that tried to emulate QWTF. The netcode in original Half-Life was awful unless you had a sub 50 ping and were untouchable by the rest of the server, where as QWTF was so much more forgiving to 56k players. The LPB QWTF sniper was ... horrible to play against and defend behind, so the removal of that helped a good bit for fully switching over.

There were some initial complaints about it being dumbed down a bit but it seemed like as people played it they did start to like it. There were of course the diehard fans that stayed QWTF but the pub servers started disappearing and moving to CS and TFC. Later on I'd say that the skill capability is so much higher with TFC than was possible with QWTF with people figuring out hyper precise timing with conc jumps and such. While they were possible with QWTF the lack of any hand held option made multi-concs a bit impractical and the after effects were quite annoying. TFC definitly evolved into something much much faster paced than QWTF as well.

Might be a bit hazy memories about this as it was 8 years ago that the hacked LAN version came out (April 1999?), and I'd wonder what any of the other QWTF people thought of the transition. KiN, CE and various others, etc (if any still play or have passing interest that is).

[jumbok]

"oh hey, let's see what people are saying on this forum about that game that hasn't come out yet"

"gah it's just a bunch of people talking about a game that HASN'T COME OUT YET I AM FILLED WITH INDIGNATION!!"


i don't know what you guys are expecting to see in a forum devoted to an unreleased game if not people speculating. there's really nothing else to do until it comes out and we can try it.

[Koron]

Might be a bit hazy memories about this as it was 8 years ago that the hacked LAN version came out (April 1999?), and I'd wonder what any of the other QWTF people thought of the transition. KiN, CE and various others, etc (if any still play or have passing interest that is).
The hacked LAN version came out in March, the actual release was in April (if anyone actually cares). Some people like CE seemed to move over without any difficulty. I remember getting my ass kicked in one of the first TFC matches with them. That said, the TFC of that era and of today are also vastly different games. The changes over the years, including new netcode (which you've mentioned), reduction in gren2 inventory, reduction of conc power, bunny hop becoming pervasive, etc., mean that one would have to deal with a number of changes.

My opinion is that TF2 looks fun. If you look at all of the tweaks that TFC had over the years, I'd say it's pretty clear that any massively unbalanced game play features will be tweaked as necessary. The skill gap between new players and TFC veterans is obviously going to be much smaller than a game such as Fortress Forever. And maybe that's for the best.

[16Valve]

There must have been an identical thread in the QWTF community before the release of TFC.

Holy shit yes. Lots of them.

The very fact that it was being taken from the quake community to the evil VALVe empire was bad enough for them all. Quake and the modding community was nearly religion to many.

Agreed, Koron. The problem with a more leveled playing field is that the ones that have "perfected" their game have to re-learn stuff.....and they don't like it. The major whiners over TF2 seem to be the ones that wont have an obvious advantage.
And that's a good thing :P

That being said, the players that rule TFC will still have a big jump on those just coming in.

KiN and CE ruled TFC for quite a while until many left or moved on to other clans. It was a long time before the records those clans set were broken.

[WoBMatt]

KiN and CE ruled TFC for quite a while until many left or moved on to other clans. It was a long time before the records those clans set were broken.

A bit of an understatement I think :P

I remember there being CE and KiN and then everyone else lost to them 18054015701570 - 0. CE also went something like 50+ matches without a loss at the start, until KiN beat them when they transitioned over and went undefeated their entire time they existed (maybe or a few losses to CE perhaps?).

I don't really remember much of the specific hate towards Valve and TFC though that might be related to me not being much into the clan scene at the time (STA Bronze QWTF for a little bit was all I did pre-TFC) and spent most of my time on the 24/7 Canalzone server with my crappy 26.4 modem. Most of the problems I saw complaints about were netcode related and how if you weren't on a cable or DSL connection, don't bother. Anyone remember when your ping controlled how fast the (super) nailgun fired or other fun bugs? :P

[Rimuladas]

The main thing that urks me, is the part of the interview where they supposidly had and idea of what match play was like. Not likely.

Valve,
http://angrymonk.oesm.org/picard.jpg

[SithDrummer]

ahahaha now it makes sense.
Good grief!

[tyson^cool]

rofl this game is going to be horrible, have fun stepping down 30 levels in terms of game depth.
Look at disco's post. No depth, pfft.


Lets say that there are no grenades and you are able to pipe jump. How bad ass would it be if the medic could give a spy 10 second invulnirability and then he steps on the demoman's pipes. The spy could cloak either before he flys or while in mid air, and sneak in.

That would take alot of team work. I think the way the game will work is that you really have to use every class's abilities together to defeat your enemy. Yes it will be dumbed down, but it doesnt mean that it wont be fun.

See you in TF2 dude. To all the whiners: have fun watching 30+ vs |D| in hltv 2 years from now.

[Zogo]

years ago I used to think the QWTF people were insane..now it is reassuring to see what we have become like them.

[dys]

Look at disco's post. No depth, pfft.


See you in TF2 dude. To all the whiners: have fun watching 30+ vs |D| in hltv 2 years from now.

Hey thanks for the shoutout little guy! Once again, experience AND beauty prevails. ;)

[elwood-]

Lets say that there are no grenades and you are able to pipe jump. How bad ass would it be if the medic could give a spy 10 second invulnirability and then he steps on the demoman's pipes. The spy could cloak either before he flys or while in mid air, and sneak in.

That would take alot of team work. I think the way the game will work is that you really have to use every class's abilities together to defeat your enemy. Yes it will be dumbed down, but it doesnt mean that it wont be fun.

haha that's how myself and others play demoman in servers with no TK/armor stripping in the last 2fort/well public servers to send meds,spies,engies and soldiers into bases. they dont lose any health and armor and it really gets crazy in the base soon after which makes it a shitload of fun haha. plus sometimes the bhop is locked which is lame, yet still extremely fun playing with 3-4 other of your friends on vent/pub server. :p TF2 should be still pretty fun regardless of the skills and tricks being left out. something new and very very different, but that's ok people!

years ago I used to think the QWTF people were insane..now it is reassuring to see what we have become like them.
ED ZACHARY! haha nail on the coffin zogo... rofl.

See you in TF2 dude. To all the whiners: have fun watching 30+ vs |D| in hltv 2 years from now.
we're going TF2/FF which ever the team likes more and STREAKING!

http://www.decepticons.us/sigs/oldstreak.jpg

[Sutterkane]

I say scrap ff. Wait till tf2 comes out. Mod tf2 with grenades and bhop and call it ff.

Instant success.

[sai]

I say scrap ff. Wait till tf2 comes out. Mod tf2 with grenades and bhop and call it ff.

Instant success.

haha

[tyson^cool]

Hey thanks for the shoutout little guy! Once again, experience AND beauty prevails. ;)

Did tda give the "tda alarm" to |D| lolol, I kid little guy (midget) lol!

I hope to see the |D| guys in TF2 most of you seem pretty cool, cept for cal.

[dys]

cal's a jerk

[elwood-]

but the neush is the shit :D

[**HG***]

Old Swedish saying:a picture says more then 1000 words...

http://www.gameinformer.com/NR/rdonlyres/E1FA2B62-FC1A-4B31-B28B-15459DD7BA7B/12009/tf2guy3.jpg

[Stayne]

Not sure why they are holding flags... since now TF2 will be "capture the documents". wtf documents do we need to capture from a fucking corn mill and feed lot? It made for spiffy environments, but it doesn't make a damn bit of sense why all these highly armed fighters are battling in a corn mill. At least the idea of bases made sense even if the spacing of the two bases was ridiculously close.

[tyson^cool]

Are you serious about a team fortress game making sense? I think you missed the point. Both of the bases are disguised on the outside to look innocent (ie; corn mill and feed lot), but on the inside they're both 70's spy movie type compounds that house the documents the other team is trying to steal.

[unfy]

Are you serious about a team fortress game making sense? I think you missed the point. Both of the bases are disguised on the outside to look innocent (ie; corn mill and feed lot), but on the inside they're both 70's spy movie type compounds that house the documents the other team is trying to steal.

ORLY

[SithDrummer]

Not sure why they are holding flags
because HG made them and mailed them to Valve

[Stayne]

because HG made them and mailed them to Valve

oic, then kewl! :D

[caedere]

what the fuck is wrong with a flag?

capture the documents...............just wow

[WoBMatt]

what the fuck is wrong with a flag?

capture the documents...............just wow

If you really want flags, I bet you can replace the models...

[Fusion^cB]

Eh, I'll just wait. Can't say much about what I don't know much about! While I agree they did a terrible job of summing up what TFC is today, it doesn't piss me off. It's not going to change the matter that I'm going to buy the game and play it...Play it alot? I don't know, I'm a big fan of the conc skill, but hey, when I get bored of FF after a 2-3 hour play, I guess TF2 would be something simple to turn to, just to end the day with a little calm play? I dunno.

[eminent]

i think if the game is as different as it appears to be it can only be great news for the guys over in ff and better news for us, we'll get to play two different styles of games that in some way resemble what weve been playing for so long.

Valve is obviously putting a lot of time and effort into this so to just assume its gonna be bad just from appearance is a mistake imo. Sure there will be some people who come and go in the game just like there has been for tfc, but if anybody here predicted that they would still be here 4+ years later when they began playing tfc i think thats a stretch. atleast we know ff will be there

ofcourse its always fun to critique though

[wads]

but trance.. custom tfc maps have made this game better and i would like to see those maps made again, maybe with little changes but still.. FF is making monkey and others because they know those are the maps people want.. do people even have access to SDK ( which i think is the steam map maker? ).. were gonna sti there and play the same lame ass maps over and over.. someone should get a move on remaking what made tfc

play the same lame ass 6 maps included in the release over and over again.

as opposed to monkey_l, schtop, 2mesa3, openfire_l, sd2. hey wait, thats only 5. loL

on a serious note, you guys are all freaking out over the dumbing down of the game, but do you people not realize, that all the "advanced" techniques such as bhop, air strafing, concing, and other such learned skills are not originally designed into the game? hence there would be no reason for valve to announce their existence.

its the players that play the game, who invent new ways and new skills. i gareentee you that the first week of TFC's release, the game was as dumbed down as you think tf2 will be. but give it time, the equivilent of KiN and CE will emerge.

[WoBMatt]

Bunny Hop was not originally intended and once discovered by Valve put a cap in to 170% of max run speed, compared to CS with 100% max run speed capped.

Air strafing (if you mean air control) is set via server variable and known what the effects are.

Concing was 100% included, then made harder with TF1.5 as the original concs were way over powered.

Please learn at least some things about TFC before you spout off garbage.

[Blashy]

In the IGN preview:

Pyro. In close combat, which takes place frequently based on what we saw, these guys trounce pretty much anyone they come across.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The burn lives!!!

[CuRve]

Clans dont use scout? What?

Thats what I said as I was reading it too lolol. In one sense I understand their changes and why they are making it...coz really...how often is it people yell and cry about spam? *lol* Now what i don't agree with is having more adl type maps instead of ctf. Definitly needs to be a balance between the 2. I'll def buy the game though and give it a try.

[CuRve]

i like the no nades idea, but no concs is kinda dumb, no other game has concs (at least not how we use them in tfc) so taking them away would be taking away what made the game unique

So long conc jump maps. FFS use to be hella fun spending i mean literally hours in a server on conc jump maps and shit.

[CuRve]

I wonder if scouts can double jump out of water. Since we wont be able to water conc, a map like well would be a pain to get to the top...

Speaking of which, lets stack all the defensive at the front door and not let anyone in, thats it. Since you can't conc to bats or anywhere else. Which probably explains them having warpath type adl ma