Stayne
May 18th, 2007, 12:15 AM
Greetings!
I initially emailed the Valve team to inform them of some research that I had done using TFC as my research tool. In that email I expressed that I was following the TF2 information releases and that, as a long-time TFC clanner I was both excited and concerned. Robin Walker replied, thanking me for sharing my work with him, and offered to answer questions that I might have concerning TF2.
After debating myself for over a week on whether to just wait for the game to come out or to ask some questions, I finally decided to ask. I also decided that if I was going to ask, I should try to be a mouthpiece for the critical members of the TFC community. I asked questions that seemed to be recurring in the threads here, and included some anonymous quotes to back up my questions. I won't argue that my questions are the best worded or that I asked all of the questions that I should have, but this is what I have. With his permission, I share the exchange.
My questions all went out in one email. His answers came back in another. For your convenience I will group the questions and answers together. Doing so makes some of the comments a bit out of context, but you should get the drift.
================================================== ========
Stayne: I have debated whether I should take you up on your offer. Obviously, since you are reading this, I decided to do so. I enjoyed your recent interview on The 1up Show. The game-play footage was nice, and it certainly aroused both excitement and concern among The Catacombs folks. What I’d like to do is ask you some questions that I haven’t seen addressed in other interviews or teasers. I would also ask your permission to post your answers on the catacombs for my peers to read.
Robin: Thanks for asking permission to post my answers. We assume people will do this anyway, but it's always nice to see someone upfront enough to ask about it. Some of the questions are complex beasts, so I hope I have answered them sufficiently.
Question #1
Stayne: The first question that comes up often in the catacombs is, are the TF2 developers familiar with present-day TFC gameplay? Do any of the TF2 developers play TFC in clans?
“it appears as though these guys who work at valve have no idea to what TFC has evolved to over 7 years.”
“it seems to me that Valve is making some of these sweeping changes based on misinformation and complete lack of understanding of how their own game is played, not because they've done their research. I know it doesn't really mean anything, but its definitely disheartening when you see the developer of a game that you've played for the better part of eight years lack even the most fundamental knowledge of how the game is played in pubs, let-alone in match situations.”
Robin: We're not involved in the TFC footage that the press is showing, and have no control over it. Our TFC comments in the press are almost exclusively to do with understandability. TFC is an opaque game to new players, in that we didn't do a lot of work trying to help new players understand what's going on. We've done a lot of work to tackle this in TF2, and going back to TFC afterwards was painful, which we took as a measure of success in our efforts in TF2. The effort was largely in areas like UI / player feedback, and in features like the freeze cam, which help players understand straightforward things such as "Who killed me?" and "How did he kill me?". Our playtesting has shown that if players don't know the answers to these simple questions, they give up pretty quickly. It's worth pointing out that this isn't mutually exclusive with deepening the skill curve, since that's a common misconception. Improving understandability is about increasing the
visibility of the skills required by the game, and usually results in the addition of features (like the personalized stat tracking). If players can't see what skills are needed to be good at the game, they can't improve.
Question 2
Stayne: Why the move away from CTF? I have enjoyed command-point maps very much, and even led my clan on a 12-game win streak against some very good clans in the past. However, command-point maps have never been the main map-type for TFC. They require a great amount of teamwork and coordination. I have found it difficult to get players to put in the time to do that. CTF is much more straightforward, and has been preferred by the TFC community.
[TF2] is a totally different game, its not meant to appease current players
Robin: As you mention, control points require more teamwork & coordination. We've done a lot more UI work around the control points, in the player's HUD, in the world, and through sound & voice messages. We've found that even new playtesters sitting down for the first time can understand what's going on, and how to help their team capture a control point. They're versatile and we use them in a variety of ways, such as on cp_bridge, where Blue must capture two side control points before they can attack the final one in Reds tower. You could probably do that kind of thing with flags too, but it makes more sense with control points.
Question 3
Stayne: Will there be weapons-assisted movement in addition to the rocket-jump? That is, do any other weapons provide “kick” (like the HL1 gauss) or anything that would serve for propulsion?
i dont mind the no grenades thing. but ADL [Attack-Defend League (Dustbowl/Avanti-style] will suck without em, for jumping and things, that sucks
Robin: All damage applies force to players, like it did in TFC. Rockets & grenades knock people flying, sentry fire pins enemies to walls, etc.
Question 4
Stayne:How can any weapon/skill replace what is being lost by removing grenades? Removing grenades does more than remove a weapon. It also reduces options and reduces the depth of each player class. It removes movement possibilities, and ways to displace enemies (e.g., nail grenades and gas grenades were great for keeping people out of locations). It removes the need to learn how to aim when conc’d, or how to avoid being destroyed by an EMP.
the only reason TFC is still alive is because it's unique. if this game had no nades and no concs i would have just played quake 3.
Robin: There are many new class/weapon features that add skills into the game, and we specifically focused on adding to characters that became too simple after grenades went away. A good example is the Scout, who's double jump is extremely versatile. It's the core of his combat, and was tweaked until he was able to go toe-to-toe with a Heavy or Soldier if he's sufficiently skilled. We then deliberately crafted a variety of ways that Scouts can move through the maps in a unique fashion through his double jump, such as in one control point area where the Scout can move around the entire arena on rooftops, with other classes relegated to the ground below. So hopefully you can see how we replaced the conc with a skill that affects the Scouts second-to-second decision making/gameplay, whether he's in combat or not, and has a deep skill curve.
Question 5
Stayne: Will there be bunny-hop or air control/acceleration in TF2? HL2 has the capability for bunny-hop. Will it remain the same for TF2 or will there be strict limits on player speed (a la Counter-Strike)? This is important as movement speed and agility is an incredibly important part of TF gameplay (as you know in creating the new Scout).
Robin: Players ground movement speed is clamped to their class speed. In the air, players have air control and speed isn't clamped. In the case of the Scout, we increased his base movement speed higher than that of TFCs to account for the clamping of strafe running (i.e. he's now moves as if he was strafe running all the time).
Question 6
Stayne: Do you view TF2 as primarily a game for public servers or a game that will support a thriving clan community, or both? What are you doing to make TF2 viable for clanning?
…consider the depth of skills that are the most effective for moving and killing. Those are the reasons we still play TFC now. I haven't, and most people haven't perfected every nuance of the game and none of us probably ever will due to the nearly infinite possibilities of play in terms of skills and intelligence used in a highly competitive environment.
I don't see that in TF2. Right from the way they designed the look, it seems clear to me that Valve wanted this game to cater to more "fun" or "non-competitive and super wacky!" gameplay.
Robin: We view TF2 as a game for both casual & competitive players, as we have with all our multiplayer products. We avoid making decisions that'll hurt either group, because casual players are where new competitive players come from, and competitive players form the backbone of the community. The design process for TF2 hasn't been any different than TFCs (heck, it's almost the exact same people involved) in this regard.
Question 7
Stayne How will the TF2 command point maps differ from Unreal Tournament double-domination and area-control maps? Since there are no flags in TF2, they sound very similar to UT2k4-style.
Robin: I can't remember the exact details of UT's area control mode, so I couldn't say for sure, sorry.
Question 8
Stayne: Will respawn-delay, kill-cam, and some of the other new additions be adjustable via server cvars?
Robin: We're still working on a better method for servers to modify rules, and having that communicated to players who are looking for specific rulesets. (i.e. how do players who want faster respawn times find servers with them?) Once we've got that figured out we should know what modifiable rules will be there. Our concern is ensuring that players find the game they're looking for, and to know when they're on a server with modified rules.
Ending
Stayne: Robin, I hope these questions and comments didn’t come off as overly hostile. In all honesty, the TFC community wants TF2 to be amazing. We have desired an update for a long time, and have felt a bit neglected while Valve worked on CS and DoD. However, losing things that have been fundamental to what made TFC what it is raises many concerns that it will be turned into a wacky version of DoD or WoW. We don’t want TF to lose what made it so great to begin with. We don’t want it to lose its fast pace, its depth of play, its difficulty to master, and most of all, its unique feel (not just in looks).
Robin:TF2's built by the same folks who made TFC, and that was pretty much the same group who built QWTF. This time around we've just got a bunch more technology & art behind us. I hope you enjoy it.
Stayne: Thank you for taking the time to answer my email. Thank you for all of the work you are doing to bring out the next level of the best multi-player FPS.
I initially emailed the Valve team to inform them of some research that I had done using TFC as my research tool. In that email I expressed that I was following the TF2 information releases and that, as a long-time TFC clanner I was both excited and concerned. Robin Walker replied, thanking me for sharing my work with him, and offered to answer questions that I might have concerning TF2.
After debating myself for over a week on whether to just wait for the game to come out or to ask some questions, I finally decided to ask. I also decided that if I was going to ask, I should try to be a mouthpiece for the critical members of the TFC community. I asked questions that seemed to be recurring in the threads here, and included some anonymous quotes to back up my questions. I won't argue that my questions are the best worded or that I asked all of the questions that I should have, but this is what I have. With his permission, I share the exchange.
My questions all went out in one email. His answers came back in another. For your convenience I will group the questions and answers together. Doing so makes some of the comments a bit out of context, but you should get the drift.
================================================== ========
Stayne: I have debated whether I should take you up on your offer. Obviously, since you are reading this, I decided to do so. I enjoyed your recent interview on The 1up Show. The game-play footage was nice, and it certainly aroused both excitement and concern among The Catacombs folks. What I’d like to do is ask you some questions that I haven’t seen addressed in other interviews or teasers. I would also ask your permission to post your answers on the catacombs for my peers to read.
Robin: Thanks for asking permission to post my answers. We assume people will do this anyway, but it's always nice to see someone upfront enough to ask about it. Some of the questions are complex beasts, so I hope I have answered them sufficiently.
Question #1
Stayne: The first question that comes up often in the catacombs is, are the TF2 developers familiar with present-day TFC gameplay? Do any of the TF2 developers play TFC in clans?
“it appears as though these guys who work at valve have no idea to what TFC has evolved to over 7 years.”
“it seems to me that Valve is making some of these sweeping changes based on misinformation and complete lack of understanding of how their own game is played, not because they've done their research. I know it doesn't really mean anything, but its definitely disheartening when you see the developer of a game that you've played for the better part of eight years lack even the most fundamental knowledge of how the game is played in pubs, let-alone in match situations.”
Robin: We're not involved in the TFC footage that the press is showing, and have no control over it. Our TFC comments in the press are almost exclusively to do with understandability. TFC is an opaque game to new players, in that we didn't do a lot of work trying to help new players understand what's going on. We've done a lot of work to tackle this in TF2, and going back to TFC afterwards was painful, which we took as a measure of success in our efforts in TF2. The effort was largely in areas like UI / player feedback, and in features like the freeze cam, which help players understand straightforward things such as "Who killed me?" and "How did he kill me?". Our playtesting has shown that if players don't know the answers to these simple questions, they give up pretty quickly. It's worth pointing out that this isn't mutually exclusive with deepening the skill curve, since that's a common misconception. Improving understandability is about increasing the
visibility of the skills required by the game, and usually results in the addition of features (like the personalized stat tracking). If players can't see what skills are needed to be good at the game, they can't improve.
Question 2
Stayne: Why the move away from CTF? I have enjoyed command-point maps very much, and even led my clan on a 12-game win streak against some very good clans in the past. However, command-point maps have never been the main map-type for TFC. They require a great amount of teamwork and coordination. I have found it difficult to get players to put in the time to do that. CTF is much more straightforward, and has been preferred by the TFC community.
[TF2] is a totally different game, its not meant to appease current players
Robin: As you mention, control points require more teamwork & coordination. We've done a lot more UI work around the control points, in the player's HUD, in the world, and through sound & voice messages. We've found that even new playtesters sitting down for the first time can understand what's going on, and how to help their team capture a control point. They're versatile and we use them in a variety of ways, such as on cp_bridge, where Blue must capture two side control points before they can attack the final one in Reds tower. You could probably do that kind of thing with flags too, but it makes more sense with control points.
Question 3
Stayne: Will there be weapons-assisted movement in addition to the rocket-jump? That is, do any other weapons provide “kick” (like the HL1 gauss) or anything that would serve for propulsion?
i dont mind the no grenades thing. but ADL [Attack-Defend League (Dustbowl/Avanti-style] will suck without em, for jumping and things, that sucks
Robin: All damage applies force to players, like it did in TFC. Rockets & grenades knock people flying, sentry fire pins enemies to walls, etc.
Question 4
Stayne:How can any weapon/skill replace what is being lost by removing grenades? Removing grenades does more than remove a weapon. It also reduces options and reduces the depth of each player class. It removes movement possibilities, and ways to displace enemies (e.g., nail grenades and gas grenades were great for keeping people out of locations). It removes the need to learn how to aim when conc’d, or how to avoid being destroyed by an EMP.
the only reason TFC is still alive is because it's unique. if this game had no nades and no concs i would have just played quake 3.
Robin: There are many new class/weapon features that add skills into the game, and we specifically focused on adding to characters that became too simple after grenades went away. A good example is the Scout, who's double jump is extremely versatile. It's the core of his combat, and was tweaked until he was able to go toe-to-toe with a Heavy or Soldier if he's sufficiently skilled. We then deliberately crafted a variety of ways that Scouts can move through the maps in a unique fashion through his double jump, such as in one control point area where the Scout can move around the entire arena on rooftops, with other classes relegated to the ground below. So hopefully you can see how we replaced the conc with a skill that affects the Scouts second-to-second decision making/gameplay, whether he's in combat or not, and has a deep skill curve.
Question 5
Stayne: Will there be bunny-hop or air control/acceleration in TF2? HL2 has the capability for bunny-hop. Will it remain the same for TF2 or will there be strict limits on player speed (a la Counter-Strike)? This is important as movement speed and agility is an incredibly important part of TF gameplay (as you know in creating the new Scout).
Robin: Players ground movement speed is clamped to their class speed. In the air, players have air control and speed isn't clamped. In the case of the Scout, we increased his base movement speed higher than that of TFCs to account for the clamping of strafe running (i.e. he's now moves as if he was strafe running all the time).
Question 6
Stayne: Do you view TF2 as primarily a game for public servers or a game that will support a thriving clan community, or both? What are you doing to make TF2 viable for clanning?
…consider the depth of skills that are the most effective for moving and killing. Those are the reasons we still play TFC now. I haven't, and most people haven't perfected every nuance of the game and none of us probably ever will due to the nearly infinite possibilities of play in terms of skills and intelligence used in a highly competitive environment.
I don't see that in TF2. Right from the way they designed the look, it seems clear to me that Valve wanted this game to cater to more "fun" or "non-competitive and super wacky!" gameplay.
Robin: We view TF2 as a game for both casual & competitive players, as we have with all our multiplayer products. We avoid making decisions that'll hurt either group, because casual players are where new competitive players come from, and competitive players form the backbone of the community. The design process for TF2 hasn't been any different than TFCs (heck, it's almost the exact same people involved) in this regard.
Question 7
Stayne How will the TF2 command point maps differ from Unreal Tournament double-domination and area-control maps? Since there are no flags in TF2, they sound very similar to UT2k4-style.
Robin: I can't remember the exact details of UT's area control mode, so I couldn't say for sure, sorry.
Question 8
Stayne: Will respawn-delay, kill-cam, and some of the other new additions be adjustable via server cvars?
Robin: We're still working on a better method for servers to modify rules, and having that communicated to players who are looking for specific rulesets. (i.e. how do players who want faster respawn times find servers with them?) Once we've got that figured out we should know what modifiable rules will be there. Our concern is ensuring that players find the game they're looking for, and to know when they're on a server with modified rules.
Ending
Stayne: Robin, I hope these questions and comments didn’t come off as overly hostile. In all honesty, the TFC community wants TF2 to be amazing. We have desired an update for a long time, and have felt a bit neglected while Valve worked on CS and DoD. However, losing things that have been fundamental to what made TFC what it is raises many concerns that it will be turned into a wacky version of DoD or WoW. We don’t want TF to lose what made it so great to begin with. We don’t want it to lose its fast pace, its depth of play, its difficulty to master, and most of all, its unique feel (not just in looks).
Robin:TF2's built by the same folks who made TFC, and that was pretty much the same group who built QWTF. This time around we've just got a bunch more technology & art behind us. I hope you enjoy it.
Stayne: Thank you for taking the time to answer my email. Thank you for all of the work you are doing to bring out the next level of the best multi-player FPS.