Wow... Fucking Royce Gracie tests positive...

[MassacrE]

from sherdog:

Thursday, June 14, 2007
by Josh Gross (joshg@sherdog.com)

Mixed martial arts legend Royce Gracie (Pictures), best known as the slender gi-wearing Brazilian who twisted oversized competitors into knots during the early days of the Ultimate Fighting Championship, tested positive for Nandrolone Metabolite following his decision win over Kazushi Sakuraba (Pictures), June 2 in Los Angeles, the California State Athletic Commission revealed on Thursday.

Gracie has been suspended from June 2, 2007 through May 30, 2008, and is fined $2,500, the maximum penalty the CSAC can hand down.

The 40-year-old Gracie has 30 days from the date on his suspension letter to appeal.

Calls to Gracie's representatives were not immediately returned.

Unbelievable, sigh. This is kind of shocking to me as now this kind of shakes the very foundations of what the sport was built on. The legacy of the Gracie family. Unfortunate.

[bok]

Steroids play just as a large a role in MMA as they do in other sports. Royce isn't even close to being the best fighter in his family btw.

[MassacrE]

Never claimed that he was the best, but he's still a great fighter and he's the guy that put BJJ into the main stream.

[puppychow]

i doubt steroids had much to do with his successful career. he's still all about technique.

[Mercenary-VD]

Wait a minute, there are professional MMA fighters who don't cycle?

[blah]

i doubt steroids had much to do with his successful career. he's still all about technique.

Then you're a fool. This is like everyone who says that steroids don't help you hit the ball in baseball, and everyone who can't understand why pitchers abuse steroids so often.

Right now steroids in sports is such a sham. We try to tell our kids not to do steroids, but barring freakish genetics, you give up a huge leg on your competition by not cycling to build muscle. I'm not advocating it as I would never touch it, but it's hard to tell a twenty year old kid whose entire life is baseball or football that he shouldn't use whatever is available to him to have a shot at making millions.

Something needs to be done. Steroids, especially when used without medical supervision, can be very harmful and are somewhat akin to playing russian roulette with your future. Most of the time you get ridiculous gains with only minor downsides, but sometimes you get major problems. Kids shouldn't be forced to play this vicious game just to keep up with the Joneses. Something needs to be done, and not just in the professional leagues. Banning players for steroid use in the MLB or NFL does nothing to discourage cycling in H.S. to add muscle mass at a young age.

[Brick]

I agree with you, blah. However, I also agree that Gracie is an amazingly technical BJJ fighter with or without steroids. The guy has minimal muscle and strength compared to almost anyone he fights and no amount of cycling is going to make your technique better. It's complete garbage that anyone uses steroids, but you can't discount someone like Royce's career over this in my opinion. If he was a striker or had a style that involved over-powering people, then I'd have a different opinion. That simply isn't even close to the case here and that's why I think it does need to be at least taken into consideration.

Again, regardless of all that. It's disgraceful and sad to see any athlete use steroids.

[bok]

I agree with you, blah. However, I also agree that Gracie is an amazingly technical BJJ fighter with or without steroids. The guy has minimal muscle and strength compared to almost anyone he fights and no amount of cycling is going to make your technique better. It's complete garbage that anyone uses steroids, but you can't discount someone like Royce's career over this in my opinion. If he was a striker or had a style that involved over-powering people, then I'd have a different opinion. That simply isn't even close to the case here and that's why I think it does need to be at least taken into consideration.

Again, regardless of all that. It's disgraceful and sad to see any athlete use steroids.



I'm willing to play devil's advocate here:

Steroids definitely WILL make your technique better. Most athletes DO NOT take steroids to put on a large amount of muscle. They DO however take them for their recovery properties. Training for any sport at a professional level is extremely taxing on the body. Taking steroids allows someone to recover much faster. If I can get in 40 training sessions (I mean training not lifting) during the time an average person gets in 20 then I have a distinct advantage no?

[bok]

Then you're a fool. This is like everyone who says that steroids don't help you hit the ball in baseball, and everyone who can't understand why pitchers abuse steroids so often.

Right now steroids in sports is such a sham. We try to tell our kids not to do steroids, but barring freakish genetics, you give up a huge leg on your competition by not cycling to build muscle. I'm not advocating it as I would never touch it, but it's hard to tell a twenty year old kid whose entire life is baseball or football that he shouldn't use whatever is available to him to have a shot at making millions.

Something needs to be done. Steroids, especially when used without medical supervision, can be very harmful and are somewhat akin to playing russian roulette with your future. Most of the time you get ridiculous gains with only minor downsides, but sometimes you get major problems. Kids shouldn't be forced to play this vicious game just to keep up with the Joneses. Something needs to be done, and not just in the professional leagues. Banning players for steroid use in the MLB or NFL does nothing to discourage cycling in H.S. to add muscle mass at a young age.

Good post blah. Fans want to see people hitting 70 homeruns, DE's getting 20 sacks and moving like a WR, they just don't want to know how it's happening. Truthfully I'm not sure what can be done about steroids or any other performance enhancer athletes use. As long as there has been competition there have been people trying to find ways to increase performance dating as far back as the earliest olympics.

These things are only coming to light now as the methods of detection are becoming more and more sophisticated. Though the users tend to always be one step ahead of the people trying to catch them.

[Brick]

I'm willing to play devil's advocate here:

Steroids definitely WILL make your technique better. Most athletes DO NOT take steroids to put on a large amount of muscle. They DO however take them for their recovery properties. Training for any sport at a professional level is extremely taxing on the body. Taking steroids allows someone to recover much faster. If I can get in 40 training sessions (I mean training not lifting) during the time an average person gets in 20 then I have a distinct advantage no?I think that's taking it to a real extreme. It's not like there are 10 practices per day and a normal person can only attend 5 because they can't physically handle more. People who train attend just as many sessions as those who use steroids primarily because that's simply all that are there. Plus you still have to have time in the day to eat, sleep, etc. And I mean really, he is part of the Gracie family and BJJ is how they live. No one in their family has better or worse technique because of steroid use.

[bok]

I think that's taking it to a real extreme. It's not like there are 10 practices per day and a normal person can only attend 5 because they can't physically handle more. People who train attend just as many sessions as those who use steroids primarily because that's simply all that are there. Plus you still have to have time in the day to eat, sleep, etc. And I mean really, he is part of the Gracie family and BJJ is how they live. No one in their family has better or worse technique because of steroid use.


What sports did/do you play competitively? Was there ever a time at practice, at a game, at tournament when you were really sore, tired, beat up etc that you couldn't perform at your best level? Steroids significantly limit the amount of time you need to recover.

[Mercenary-VD]

I think that's taking it to a real extreme. It's not like there are 10 practices per day and a normal person can only attend 5 because they can't physically handle more.

It's not that the athletes can't physically handle more, it's that the athletes using steroids cosistently have better training sessions. From my experience with University and City/Provincial level football the athletes who juiced were, from an injury standpoint, healthier throughout the on and off season. At any point during the season we'd have multiple players playing through all types of injuries. It wasn't that the guy who juiced didn't get injuries but they were definitely, in general, less apt at sustaining an injury that would limit them during game or training situations.

Futhermore, the regenerative effects of steroids go far beyond just muscle recovery, as they also aid in CNS recovery which, in my opinion, may be more important for ensuring quality training and athletic performance.

[Brick]

I've played judo competitively most of my life and wrestled in high school. Of course I've been all of those and all of them will affect my technique at the time only because my body may be exhausted. However, it doesn't change how good my technique actually is. Steroids won't make me smarter, it won't make me memorize more techniques and it won't make me be any better at doing those techniques (except as mentioned above). I'm not talking about having poor technique in a match due to being tired because that isn't technique related. Steroids might make you faster, stronger and in better condition, but it does stop there. It's huge, but certainly not all there is to competing.

I also agree with you, Merc. But again, all of this is revolving around how good of shape you're in. Sure if you get injured, then you can't really train and learn and that's a valid point. However, throughout an entire career I definitely still stand by the opinion steroids simply won't make you a better technical fighter. Obviously they can't directly, but I think the indirect improvements through extra training (whether it's due to lack of injuries or better conditioning) is pretty negligible compared to the direct impact it has on your body.

I would certainly argue that Royce Gracie's BJJ (with respect to technique) isn't better because of steroid use.

[MassacrE]

I think what you're all overlooking is that BJJ was created as an off shoot of JJ so that smaller, less powerful guys could be effective, having increased strength would allow a smaller guy (like Gracie) pull off additional moves that would otherwise be less likely due to his physical limitations. Also, technique or not having strength or additional power brings opportunity. You can move your opponent around with strength at times instead of leverage. It's endless but being stronger is always a +.

[puppychow]

i think the performance enhancing effect of steroids has been waaaaay overblown. i do awknowledge a feather in dumbo's nose placebo effect and a bit of real world enhancement, but it doesnt make you twice the athlete. just my opinion.

[sc`]

They passed a bill a few weeks ago in Texas to have random steroid screenings in Texas high schools, with about 25-30% of all athletes getting tested per year.

[bok]

Good. The last thing highschoolers need is to be messing with their endocrine system when it's still developing.

[Mercenary-VD]

i think the performance enhancing effect of steroids has been waaaaay overblown. i do awknowledge a feather in dumbo's nose placebo effect and a bit of real world enhancement, but it doesnt make you twice the athlete. just my opinion.

Anyone on steroids isn't looking to become twice the athlete they're looking to seperate themselves from the competition by fractions of seconds, minutes of endurance or pounds of weight. Steroids allow you to consistenty train and compete at a higher level then you would have been able to do naturally.

[puppychow]

ok, agreed, but in ur opinion, how much has steriods helped bonds?

[Suicidal Anomaly]

In my opinion it's helped him quite a bit. There's no denying he could hit HR's before and without the steroid scandal would still have been considered one of the best ever imo and I don't like him because of his attitude. Players lasting longer and like Merc said getting that extra edge which could be seconds, strength, whatever gives them an advantage over non users.

[Mercenary-VD]

ok, agreed, but in ur opinion, how much has steriods helped bonds?

To be honest, I have no idea. Also, I have no idea of what kind of steroids Bonds was using and I have no real idea about how steroids impact baseball. With other more physical sports the impact is obvious, but I'm really hesitant to comment on baseball when I know zilch about steroids in the game.

[Vanquish]

I don't believe Royce was on the juice before any of his previous fights. For his entire career he 174-178, then all of a sudden he walks in at a jacked 188 with a much more muscular build. Before the test results came in people were suspecting he was juicing.

That may be disappointing, but I don't think this particular incident bodes any worse on the sport of MMA as a whole than if Joe Nobody were to get caught using steroids - the masses should not be punished for the actions of the few. The SACs have been doing a good job lately of testing fighters and ousting those who fail who fail the tests. If an athlete of any sport were to test positive for illegal substances of any kind I would blame the sport for their actions.