TF2 Matchplay

[DarthGreg]

How do you folks feel about the depth of TF2? Do you think it can support a serious matchplay community? The game is fun as hell but this is the question that kept running through my mind as I played.

[MrSparkle]

How do you folks feel about the depth of TF2? Do you think it can support a serious matchplay community? The game is fun as hell but this is the question that kept running through my mind as I played.serious...lol. Fun maybe. I don't know about serious.

[GhOsT]

I'm still trying to figure out why people here feel you need concs to support match play...

Does it have 2 teams... yes
Is there a goal to accomplish... yes

If the answer to those 2 questions are yes then it will support match play.

[leg]

DrathGreg didn't mention about the lack of concs...

[downthesun]

wtf. i love how steam said i would be able to play as soon as it was available and then it doesnt show up as being playable last night. i just closed steam and reopened it and now its showing up as playable. arrggg

[InnerFury]

i really have a hard time seeing this work with a ctf point of view. maybe im just not looking at it right, but i dont see how a offensive person could cap vs a good defense with this gameplay. the only thing i can see thats not factored in is maybe a heavy offense with a medic healing, and attacking at the same time over and over. which doesnt seem fun at all. not even to mention what would happen if the other team pot shot.

[GhOsT]

DrathGreg didn't mention about the lack of concs...
He may not have said it but there have been a bunch of people on here saying stuff like that. I might as well throw bhopping in there as well since I'm sure someone will bring that up.

[Suicidal Bastard]

I foresee 3 medic 2 hw offenses... or just a shit load of spies...

[Stayne]

He may not have said it but there have been a bunch of people on here saying stuff like that. I might as well throw bhopping in there as well since I'm sure someone will bring that up.

Ghost is feeling paranoid. Don't worry, they won't be mean to your baby.

[GhOsT]

I just find it annoying that people think TF2 is unable to support clan matches.

But whatever, the people who think that have FF to play.

[Janus]

I still need to play it, but I would think that without faster movement abilities that for a 9v9 (maybe 5v5 would work) and with a good defense I think that it would be difficult to get past a strong one.

[5p`]

I still need to play it, but I would think that without faster movement abilities that for a 9v9 (maybe 5v5 would work) and with a good defense I think that it would be difficult to get past a strong one.

solution: 8v8.

[northern lights]

Don't forget guys the majority of maps are not CTF, but more like scrummage-push style

[Sutterkane]

I think there should be highlander style leagues.

[MoonGuardian]

I think there should be highlander style leagues.

If so, we'll be seeing you in that league :D

hahaha.

This has a lot of potential for league play. There however maybe medic, and spy restrictions. lol.....

some cap points (like dustbowls final one) cap really quick.... atleast in our khr 4v4 last night, it was near impossible to stop them. But then again, MrBill rocks, and I suck. so.. yeah..


For CTF, maps will be INSANLY different. I'm already thinking of possible changes to existing maps to make them better. Maps like 2fort I forsee being -very- difficult.

You can however, run by an SG as a scout, pretty easily too. You guys, its back to the ol "what's the best d strat we can make for this, lets practice/pub for 2 hours every day" :-)

[Jarek]

only got to play for about an hour before class, but i think a/d matches will be superb in this game with lowered respawn times.

i wonder why TF2 has way better graphics and gives me about 40 more FPS than FF does. if FF had better FPS for me, i would play it hands down simply because of the unlimited possibility for deception with the spy. time to go play some TF2 spy a bit more :D

[GhOsT]

only got to play for about an hour before class, but i think a/d matches will be superb in this game with lowered respawn times.

i wonder why TF2 has way better graphics and gives me about 40 more FPS than FF does. if FF had better FPS for me, i would play it hands down simply because of the unlimited possibility for deception with the spy. time to go play some TF2 spy a bit more :D
Well, multi-core support is 1 reason. Also, I would think that being the original designer of the engine would mean you might have a bit more knowledge on how to optimize it.

[Lt.Ramza]

There is def possibility of matchplay if you can get over the idea that its not going to be the same type of matchplay we're use to with TFC. :-0
i wonder why TF2 has way better graphics and gives me about 40 more FPS than FF does. if FF had better FPS for me,

I experienced the same.

[__Mad]

matchplay is definitely possible, just don't jump to conclusions how it's going to work. It isn't TFC, so don't force that style of matchplay on it. And for the love of god when there is a ctf map played in a match, don't try to implement some ridiculous OvO rule.

[5p`]

And for the love of god when there is a ctf map played in a match, don't try to implement some ridiculous OvO rule.

*sigh* i suppose i'll have to revert back to my newbie days and take the water to the enemy's base on every run so i wont lose hitpoints on the bridge.

[Unique]

Offense versus Defense will be A LOT different due to the fact that there are no concs or nades. Offense will have to run a lot heavier people just to break through some of the defense. If you run all scouts in TF2 u'd probably all get mowed down before you hit the front door. Scouts are fast, but hitable for skilled players. Expect to see a lot of soldier/demoman/hwguy even on offense tryin to steal your flag. Atleast thats what im guessing, less nades nerfing the scouts and medics means heavier offense would probably be used. I CALL HW OFFENSE!

[~A~]

TFC started and expanded without any of that stuff we rely so much on today to play the game, TF2 will too.

[MoonGuardian]

matchplay is definitely possible, just don't jump to conclusions how it's going to work. It isn't TFC, so don't force that style of matchplay on it. And for the love of god when there is a ctf map played in a match, don't try to implement some ridiculous OvO rule.

might go back to the old style TF... "Soccer" like positioning.. Forwards, midfielders, defenders, "goalie" atleast for ctf.

[WoBMatt]

TFC started and expanded without any of that stuff we rely so much on today to play the game, TF2 will too.

Rocket and conc jumps were programed into TFC. Strafe jump was a known bug/feature in all Quake based games.

That pretty much covers anything used other than ramp slides for useful skills.

[kuku]

I think as long as theres is a command to limit or kill off respawn delay completely match play should be fine.


fun game.. I was a little thrown off by the no grenades at all deal.. even though i could have sworn i saw the demo destroy a sentry gun with a block of TNT in some valve video..

[gator]

I love the game but I don't see it being competitive in match play. Its fun to play but it feels like I'm playing it on a console. Its slow, they removed all the movement skills. I just can't picture it in a competitive environment, of course its vastly different from TFC, but I still can't picture it.

[Repair Man]

I think there should be highlander style leagues.

after playing for a bit I totally agree.

seriously, there isn't a single class thats really useless anymore, and the funnest games I've played thus far have had players of each class on both teams

[primer]

fun game.. I was a little thrown off by the no grenades at all deal.. even though i could have sworn i saw the demo destroy a sentry gun with a block of TNT in some valve video..

ya wtf didnt the demo have tnt mirv on the 2fort sg fr?

[5p`]

he did indeed. i got dibs on the first lawsuit attempt for false advertisement.

[Jarek]

so far on a lot of the maps with overtime setting, i have watched the timer, and last second went medic to keep my team alive in sudden death

nothing like transferring from healing in WoW to sitting in back doing the same thing in my favorite fps genre.

just kidding, ff spy rapes tf2 spy

[PHISH]

I think given the art style they were able to do away with normal/bump maps (which is a huge performance savings multiplied against the entire map/characters). They made some good decisions that aided both style and performance at the same time. (no grenades = tons fewer entities = a lot better performance)

[Ezekiel2517]

I think this game definitly cannot be played in leagues.. it feels so slow and i dont think the game suits most peoples wants for league play.. IMO FF > TF2 by alot

[Nemesis]

all of you idiots saying "ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLAY TF2 IN LEAGUES" should stop thinking of how you're playing now with scouts and medics only on offense concing all the time. its going to be completely different, with more TEAMwork involved instead of one scout or medic concing in and getting flag. sure its going to be harder to cap, but i personally think having a hard time to cap is a LOT more intense then concing in and capping every two seconds.

[beyond]

You people make it sound like leagues can't have class limits, O and D limits, etc...

With the right rule set, any game can be played in leagues. The only issue this game might have is that optimal league play rule sets may take some time and quite a bit of trial and error.

[DarthGreg]

Well, what I should have said in the OP is that I can't see TFC-like league-play occuring. CTF is frankly pretty bad in TF2, but what about matches based around the other modes?

Something I've heard is highlander-style, which could honestly be pretty fun.

But then, what kind of longevity does highlander have? ADL was nothing more than a niche community in TFC, is it strong enough in TF2 to replace CTF? What about the CP maps? They seem to have the most potential for competition in my mind, but you can't really 4v4 in them.

[Nemesis]

Well, what I should have said in the OP is that I can't see TFC-like league-play occuring. CTF is frankly pretty bad in TF2, but what about matches based around the other modes?

Something I've heard is highlander-style, which could honestly be pretty fun.

But then, what kind of longevity does highlander have? ADL was nothing more than a niche community in TFC, is it strong enough in TF2 to replace CTF? What about the CP maps? They seem to have the most potential for competition in my mind, but you can't really 4v4 in them.

its pretty bad for the standards you have on what ctf is like in tfc. its not going to be the same, people will have to learn different ways to effectively cap the flag. and cp maps are pretty damn fun, i would think it would be the main league play type, its a lot more fun to play than ctf.

and all of you saying just because its slow means itll be bad for leagues... what about like, EVERY other game thats big in leagues. lets see, CS is pretty fucking slow, and you have to wait 2384932 years to respawn. bf is slow, and also gay, but it has big leagues.

[tyson^cool]

How is ctf in tf2 bad again? and lol at:
what I should have said in the OP is that I can't see TFC-like league-play occuring.
tfc-like-league-play is gonna only occur in TFC smartguy. However I'll be playing in "tf2-like-league-play" lulz.

[DarthGreg]

LOL so we should play TF2 CTF just because it's new? Sorry, if it boils down to it I'll stick to FF/TFC CTF.

It's bad because it's slow and simple. That kind of gameplay does not work for CTF.

[tyson^cool]

lol what a surprise DarthGreg!

[northern lights]

Nobody should expect it to play like tfc-league. Thats just silly. For valve, this is not a sequel but their complete remake of how TF should of been created (in their eyes) in the first place.

Certainly if there are 1) two teams and 2) a map objective, by golly there can be league play.

[tyson^cool]

It's bad because it's slow and simple. That kind of gameplay does not work for CTF.

and fast and complex does? Wait Wait how is TFC more complex? I played FF and I thought they over-complicated things, but TFC has always been a pretty simple game like TF2. If anything simple is better.

[_loche]

You people make it sound like leagues can't have class limits, O and D limits, etc...

With the right rule set, any game can be played in leagues. The only issue this game might have is that optimal league play rule sets may take some time and quite a bit of trial and error.

beyond sighting

[primer]

sure you can play any game in a league with enough rules. but the question remains: will it blend?

[northern lights]

TFC only works in league with 1095812 rules and 857125 unspoken rules

[PHISH]

A medic is pretty much going to be required on both "offensive" and "Defensive" units, assuming those distinctions even carry over in TF2 CTF gameplay (if people make more maps to support it).

It seems like the hwguy makes the pyro a bit redundant currently, hwguy is more effective at taking out sentryguns, good at close range etc. Pyro is a beast up close but it is only up close..and even then its not a huge difference from a fatty, he can't take out sentryguns, and he's not a great deal faster. I don't see him being used as much as people shake out what works the best.

Demomans also dominate defense more than a pyro can..spawn piping with respawn delays on ctf maps..will have to do that more. Pipe traps in general are harder to get by..I guess you gotta have a fatty + med soak em up.

[Jarek]

pyro is key for keeping spies off engies backs

so i forsee a defense like pyro engy hw medic demo and offense like scout spy medic soldier/pyro if it were 9v9 ctf (which i doubt)

i like the mixup there. a/d maps will be amazing in this mod if they can trim the spawn time to something like 10 seconds max. gravelpit and dustbowl are def my fav i've played thus far.

[DarthGreg]

Leave it to you idiots to polarize a discussion. I didn't come here to bash TF2, but if you want to put me in a camp go for it, I spent an hour playing TF2 CTF last night, it was the worst of the three game types by far. If any of you had graduated from high school you would know it's possible to discuss something you disagree on without discrediting the other party.

Grow up.

[Toastie]

what ive noticed is the respawn delays have kept the yards clear and the server seem less crowded with 24 man servers... or am i imagining this?

I mean you could probably run 12on12/11on11/10on10 games just fine if what i see on the servers is how its gonna be but this game is just way too new to be talking about league play really. i forsee a limit of 2 to each class or something to prevent a single class dominating the game

[Yukfo0]

the class balance in this game is amazing, I dont see why leagues wouldn't work

[MoonGuardian]

there is your problem DG. you tried to play CTF with TF2. 2fort is not good for TF2 as far as CTF goes. Atleast not 9v9. Hopefully TF2 mappers find a good balancing way for CTF. I suspect with no respawn timer, and closer bases, it could be damn intense.

However, the tc, and cp styles. TF2 by far has the BEST chance at league play well over FF due to those few maps.

Not to mention the countless maps that will spill out from all ends of the earth. This game, TF2, is a mappers DREAM. The style is sooo unique, that im sure right now, closet mapping nerds on this forum, and other forums are drawing up map ideas on their work papers, their homework, their school notes. Chatting with other fello mappers about potential map ideas.


====
what do you guys think of sudden death... I -love- it. makes it really intense. I like that you can't relaly change your class AFTER entering sudden death, so you can't stack up on certain classes to just be defensive, etc.

[Jarek]

This game, TF2, is a mappers DREAM. The style is sooo unique, that im sure right now, closet mapping nerds on this forum, and other forums are drawing up map ideas on their ...their school notes.

guilty

[Draxx]

what ive noticed is the respawn delays have kept the yards clear and the server seem less crowded with 24 man servers... or am i imagining this?

I mean you could probably run 12on12/11on11/10on10 games just fine if what i see on the servers is how its gonna be but this game is just way too new to be talking about league play really. i forsee a limit of 2 to each class or something to prevent a single class dominating the game

I was thinking this, too. The respawn combined with the lack of nades will make it possible for 9v9+ games to be the standard. Especially on the bigger CP maps.

[GhOsT]

there is your problem DG. you tried to play CTF with TF2. 2fort is not good for TF2 as far as CTF goes. Atleast not 9v9. Hopefully TF2 mappers find a good balancing way for CTF. I suspect with no respawn timer, and closer bases, it could be damn intense.

However, the tc, and cp styles. TF2 by far has the BEST chance at league play well over FF due to those few maps.

Not to mention the countless maps that will spill out from all ends of the earth. This game, TF2, is a mappers DREAM. The style is sooo unique, that im sure right now, closet mapping nerds on this forum, and other forums are drawing up map ideas on their work papers, their homework, their school notes. Chatting with other fello mappers about potential map ideas.


====
what do you guys think of sudden death... I -love- it. makes it really intense. I like that you can't relaly change your class AFTER entering sudden death, so you can't stack up on certain classes to just be defensive, etc.
I like sudden death as well. It also ensures that a round does not turn into a stalemate.

[gator]

Consider the people who made TF2 and FF. They are both catering for different audiences.

TF2 is all about money for Valve. They want the largest player base they can get, because that = more money. To accomplish that they are worrying about the average player, dumbing it down, making things more simpler. They also have to worry about the console players. Hence, the 75 fov, slow movement, hitboxes, incredibly strong weapons, less weapons, less buttons, and lack of a command list.

FF is made by people who play matches and are making a game for the match playing community (us). They are trying to make a balanced competitive game. They didn't have to worry about profit, and the other factors associated with it.

[Frag]

i love sudden death. i think there should be a map or server mod that just does sudden death.

[gator]

Lol I could find a few thousand for you..

[Rapid]

Match play will probably focused on attack and defend style maps. I haven't played ctf but yeah it seems pretty difficult to pull off with the new design. I'm definitely looking forward to playing tf2 in clan matches.

[Koron]

what do you guys think of sudden death... I -love- it. makes it really intense. I like that you can't relaly change your class AFTER entering sudden death, so you can't stack up on certain classes to just be defensive, etc.

The servers I was in were starting to figure out that you need to stack your class balance just before going into sudden death.

And I also found a lot of people were so defensive in sudden death mode that it just ended up a stalemate anyway.

[GhOsT]

And I also found a lot of people were so defensive in sudden death mode that it just ended up a stalemate anyway.

Luckily I haven't run into that yet.

[kaww]

Sorry, if a game doesn't have bunnyhopping and conc jumping then its simply not a good game and certainly too watered down for match-play. Also I am a raging faggot. Coincidence?

[Pale_Rider]

I'm undecided on TF2 league play. I think it was MoonGuardian who mentioned in another thread how fun it could be if you've got 4-5 folks on vent/teamchat defending a CP. Before I pass judgement I'll want to try that out and give TF2 one more chance.

Of course, I know it's a BETA ffs so I'm going to get all bent out of shape over it yet. Hopefully (dear GOD IN HEAVEN I PRAY) they take out the respawn timer in the final version.

[Syrion]

I'm undecided on TF2 league play. I think it was MoonGuardian who mentioned in another thread how fun it could be if you've got 4-5 folks on vent/teamchat defending a CP. Before I pass judgement I'll want to try that out and give TF2 one more chance.

Of course, I know it's a BETA ffs so I'm going to get all bent out of shape over it yet. Hopefully (dear GOD IN HEAVEN I PRAY) they take out the respawn timer in the final version.

On CP maps, adaptability and responsiveness is going to be a huge factor. That isn't so much of a big deal in CTF--that's why TFC has degenerated to essentially a solo skill game. Compare that to a map like Run or Scrummage--teams that have good comms, good chemistry, and a sound strat win and the other team chucks grenades and bitch on konspiracy. (Or forfeit the map--'lol runs gay'.) On cp_granary yesterday, we had a team consisting of six or so KHR players and four mediocre-to-decent pubbers, versus a team of three KHR players and seven decent-to-good pubbers. I got annoyed and started bossing everyone around, and it worked out pretty well. The real problem is that a lot of the time random pubs aren't going to have direction--it's entirely possible to all cap on well or granary, it's just that nobody on pubs or in these early scrims has any kind of direction. Remember in TFC how you'd get badlands on a 16 person server and your team would go 2 heavy, 2 sniper, and 3 engineers while you went medic and tried to cap? Same damn thing, and that's distorting peoples' impressions of the strategy and potential of the game.

This game will never be a huge solo skill game. That's obvious. What's not so obvious is that individual skill parity doesn't necessarily mean a lack of good matches, or a lack of excitement. It amounts to something similar to the difference between basketball (a great sport in which an individual can dominate) and soccer (a great sport in which there are very few game-dominating players, merely a lot of very good ones). Basketball is more viscerally exciting, but soccer has more tension and its great moments are more memorable.

[design]

I'm just gonna call it right now.

Fortress Forever = CTF

Team Fortress 2 = Attack/Defend / Command Point

[bayz]

^ who'da thunk it??

[MeestarK]

Why do people think all capping on well or granary is hard on pubs? Venom and I have done it tons of times now when I'm HW and he's Medic.